Episode 67 - Laura McKowen

Laura is the author of the bestselling memoir We Are The Luckiest: The Surprising Magic of a Sober Life and Push Off From Here: Nine Essential Truths to Get You Through Life (and Everything Else).
Her work explores the intersection of addiction, recovery, emotional sobriety, and the complexities of relationships. She has written for The New York Times and has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, The Atlantic, The TODAY Show, and more.
In 2020, she founded The Luckiest Club, a global sobriety support community, and she writes Love Story, a popular Substack newsletter about sobriety, relationships, and writing. She is currently working on her third book.
Laura lives with her daughter on the North Shore of Boston.

You can find Laura on Instagram at:
https://www.instagram.com/laura_mckowen?igsh=MjBnbDE5eHExbjY2

And all Laura’s other links on Linktree:
https://linktr.ee/laura_mckowen

We Are The Luckiest - Laura McKowen
https://amzn.eu/d/0gKzYmnJ

Push off From Here - Laura McKowen
https://amzn.eu/d/0hZASeMq

John O’Donohue - The Inner Landscape of Beauty
https://amzn.eu/d/0dQokDBM

Sentimental Value
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt27714581/?ref_=ext_shr_lnk

Drinking: A Love Story - Caroline Knapp
https://amzn.eu/d/0dQokDBM

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome back to After Hours, guys, with me, Jimmy Thistle. Um today, I mean, I'm absolutely blown away. I mean, I love all of my guests, but you know, I've been following Laura for some time now. Laura's just I would use the word pioneer in, you know, the kind of sober community, the online community. Um, you know, she's just you know, nearly 11 years sober. Um she probably is 11 years sober now. Um, but yeah, it's just you know, 2015 when she got sober, and you know, she just started writing uh blog posts and things like that. And then, you know, Laura's the author of the best-selling memoir, We Are the Luckiest, and uh Push Off From Here. Um, you know, her work explores the an intersection of addiction, recovery, emotional sobriety, and the complexities of relationships. She's written for the New York Times and has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, um, The Guardian, the Atlantic, The Today Show, and more. So, you know, she's just as I say, she's just a kind of absolute legend in the suburb community. So I just, you know, it was an absolute um pleasure to have her on the podcast. Uh Laura grew up in Colorado and uh, you know, she moved to Boston when she was 21 for college. Um, but she, you know, her dad got sober at 15, um, so she had some experience with you know people in sobriety and things like that. Um, her first drink, uh, not not a huge kind of memory memori like memory of a groundbreaking kind of experience. Um, but you went, she went from kind of normal drinking to something significant quite quickly. Um, you know, our college years were kind of, you know, as she said, she kind of felt like she missed out on a lot of things because of her drinking. You know, she she missed out on a lot of the experiences of college. Um, her parents, you know, they well, her mum owned a kind of restaurant, and you know, we spoke about the kind of hospitality culture just being mad, um, you know, and seeing seeing that from an early age for her, she was she was openly seeing you know people using drugs, and it just kind of I suppose made her see things in a different light. Um we also have a good chat about alcohol and recovery and parenting teens, you know. As I said in many podcasts, I'm uh you know, I've got I'm a parent, a step parent to to you know, three kids, two of which are teenagers. So we just kind of were talking about how to juggle that and whether to, you know, say, no, you will not drink, because of course we're not gonna do that, but uh it was just a really interesting chat, and so then you know, Laura talks about that one significant traumatic experience involving her daughter that you know kind of led her down the path of sobriety. So, you know, as always, guys, listen for the similarities. Laura's got an amazing way about her, an amazing storyteller, you know. Obviously, being author to make two amazing books. Uh, you know, I've read the first one, um, we are the luckiest, and I'm uh just about to start the second one. So, you know, you'll find those in the in the show notes as well. But as I say, listen for the similarities, guys, and enjoy the episode. Cheers. See you at the end of the Laura, hey, welcome to After Hours. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_06 3:41

Hi, great.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Good. I'm I'm I'm awesome. Yeah, we've just been talking off air, and you know, I'm I'm kind of rained off today, but it but it's nice to be in the house and just getting a bit of work done, a bit of admin, a bit of editing. So yeah, yeah, it's good. Who's your who's your little friend there? What what's this is Piper Piper?

SPEAKER_05 4:00

Piper. I have two kitties. She's the girl kitty.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Ah, hello, Piper. Mine's trying to get in the door. She's playing with like the thing that's hanging up under the the kind of the bottom, the crack of the door. So yeah. So we should let her in in a bit. Yeah, absolutely. But she'll just be climbing all over. So yeah, minus. Well, it's cool. It's cool. This is this is what I do because the people that are just listening in audio, they'll be like, what? I don't I want to see the kitty. So I'm gonna have to go watch on YouTube, guys. Uh so yeah, Laura, uh tell tell the listeners where you're where you're at. Where are you?

SPEAKER_06 4:33

I'm in Boston, north of Boston. I'm in a little seaside town um on the north shore.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah, yeah. Awesome, awesome. Um, so tell us, did you grow up in in where you're at? You know, tell us about your childhood, where you grew up, and and when you had your first drink, really.

SPEAKER_06 4:50

Sure. I grew up in Colorado, so I don't know if your listeners are mostly there where you are, or if they're here. If I'm saying any geography that doesn't mat make sense, um Colorado. I would like to think I would like the country.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

I would like to think I've broken America, but I think the majority of them are are still kind of UK based. I've got a lot of people in New Zealand, but yeah, I think I'm trying to crack into America like the people. Maybe we can help you. Yeah, good, good. That's it. Yeah, yeah. So sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:21

I I grew up in Colorado, which is in the west, midwest of um, it's not considered Midwest, actually. That's offensive to Colorado, but it's it's in the wet in the western side of the US. Um, I grew up there, lived there till I went to college uh uh after college actually, um, and moved to Boston when I was 21 years old on a whim with a friend um just for something new. And I had my first drink. I wasn't one of those people who had a I don't actually know my first drink. I uh a few times sort of bleed together. I wasn't one of those people that had uh my first drink and everything made sense. I was kind of afraid of it a little my dad was a big drinker, got sober when I was 15, and so I had a little, I had some and I I didn't really necessarily want to feel out of control. Um so I didn't love it initially. Uh I didn't I sort of could have taken it or leave it. I wanted what came with drinking, which was the fun and the being in and going to parties and and all of that. That didn't come till later. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yeah, yeah. And it's it's it's difficult because I think a lot of people, and I think, and I might be wrong, but it seemed to be what like I grew up in the 90s and it was very easy to get hold of booze uh, you know, in that time. I don't I'm sure you can if you if you really try nowadays. I'm sure people still do, but I don't know over here it's 18 is the the legal age of year, it's over there it's 21. So I don't know if that makes it more difficult if they come down on you harder. But in the 90s it was just the kind of like, oh, they're just having a little drink, it's just fun and games, it's not nobody really knew the kind of dangers of it. So and I think that whole thing with acceptance and maybe being popular or just just fitting in with a group of people, you know, I think that's that's that's what it can kind of comes from.

SPEAKER_06 7:26

Um yeah, no, we didn't have a any sense of the danger of it, it was just a thing everyone did. I mean, I I didn't think twice about it. I assumed that when I became an adult, or as I got older, definitely, you know, when I went to college, that I would just be drinking all the time, and that's what people did, and that's how you had fun, and that's how you celebrated, and that's how you, you know, punctuated the end of a work day, and yeah, good day, good day, bad day, whatever it's whatever.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Yeah. So when do you think like drinking not like when it became a problem, but when it kind of started being a social thing, a social crutch, if you want to call it that? Was that college or yeah?

SPEAKER_06 8:08

It it became it went quickly from nothing big for me to something important. Yeah, by the end of high school, I remember a very specific moment. I was graduating, I had graduated, I was about to go to college. It was like the summer in between, and my family had a graduation party for me at a restaurant that we owned. So we owned a restaurant, which was a big, you know, drinking culture. And yeah, um, I sort of learned how to drink differently there and also saw drugs for the first time, like hard drugs. Um and at the restaurant, yeah, because the chefs would do all the drugs.

SPEAKER_02 8:55

Chefs are a different breed. I mean, I've worked in hospitality like my whole of my twenties and things like that, managers and whatnot. And the chefs are just a different breed because they're in there in their hot, sweaty kitchen, and they just they just once they've done that shift, it's like now we're out. And then I guess maybe they sweat it all out during the shift and then they're like right back on it. I've partied with guys and I have felt like I was gonna die, and they've gone in a kitchen and done like a 12-hour shift of just cooking burgers and frying.

SPEAKER_06 9:26

No, it's just part of how they live, yeah. It's like they because it's a tough job. It's a tough job, it attracts intense people.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:35

Uh it just does. And and restaurant culture, you it's a nocturnal life.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah, you know, antisocial, so you socialize with the people that you're clubbed together with, I think.

SPEAKER_06 9:47

Yeah, and you have you bond over this intensity, and then you just sort of blow off the steam afterwards, and that's a whole nether lay of bonding. And it's it's an interesting thing to be exposed to. I mean, I that was those were my first jobs, restaurants, and then my family owned one. So and I worked in them over the year, you know, throughout college and stuff. So that's also part of just what normalized a certain level of drinking for me. But I I remember this point where I was I was going through a lot by the end of high school, I had gone through a lot already. Um with my family, with my body, with um just I had accumulated a lot of traumas and had no knowledge of that really. I had no um tools to deal with any of that. You know, again, we were in the 90s, like we were feral. No one talked about anything. Um there were really good things about growing up at that time, but there were really rough things too. And I just was I was like a rubber band that was just like so tight. Like I I just I it all that energy and tension needed a place to go. And I realized alcohol, like when I drank, and I remember specifically at this party, I had two or three, like I could pour myself drinks at the bar at that point on my own, no one cared. And I had two Bacardi Lamon and Diet Cokes, like really strong ones. And I remember like getting to the bottom of the second, and I felt like if I can just stay this way the way I feel right now, everything's gonna be fine. I've got it. It felt like a superpower.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Yeah, keys to the kingdom, like just this level, this level, no more than that.

SPEAKER_06 11:52

If I just if I just stay here, everything's possible. I'll be fine.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Yeah, it's like your cape, isn't it? Yeah. And just to go back, you're you said your dad got sober when you were 15, so he continued working in the restaurant.

SPEAKER_06 12:09

And he wasn't no, my parents are divorced, so it was my mom's side that was in the restaurant. My dad had has a whole other, you know, work life. And um strangely, he started drinking again after about 10 years, and that and he jury's out. I mean, he's fine. Like I wouldn't, it's it's one he had another way that my dad's sort of an anomaly, like this inexplicable uh a creature. Um, but that fucked me up when I went to get sober because I was like, but you like found a way, you know.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Like I was gonna say, did he ever not like be judgmental, but if you're starting to drink maybe at like 16, 17, 18, and he's already sober at this point, did he ever give you like you know, you shouldn't be doing that?

SPEAKER_06 13:03

Oh my god, he was yeah, he because he he had only been sober for a few years at that point, and he had that he was deep into AA and had that very intense, newish sobriety sort of dogmatic view, right? My way or the highway type, yeah, and he's kind of like that anyway, so he was not amused that I was participating, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

But then, like I've got three step three stepkids, and you know, they're all like the oldest two are like 13 and 15, and they're getting to that age where you know it's like it's gonna happen at some point where they're at a party and there'll be beers and all of that stuff, and it's like, how do I manage that and kind of you know navigate it without being too like you should never drink? Do you know what I mean? Because I've got strong kind of views on it, but I don't want to be, you know, like saying no, you can't do that, because then they're gonna miss out on the socializing aspect of it, and it's like you know, looking back, I don't have any regrets apart from maybe emotional turmoil and things that I did, but the actual drinking and partying side of it, up until the last couple of years, like I I, you know, I did have a good time, let's be honest. It wasn't all bad, you know.

SPEAKER_06 14:19

Totally. I have a 17-year-old, so I'm I've got a few years on you on that, and yeah, I will say I'm sort of amazed at I was terrified of the age of my daughter coming to the age where drinking would be around. Like I would have nightmares about her drinking. It was like the worst thing I could imagine, right? The the terror in my body about it. And I am shocked at my sort of I don't want to say comfort. I'm not I'm not comfortable with her in alcohol, but I just like every other part of parenting, you sort of you're thrust into a phase and you can't a phase you can't imagine dealing with prior to that. Couldn't imagine her being on the road, couldn't imagine her driving, couldn't imagine her having a boyfriend, couldn't imagine you know, all of these things. But life, but they do because they're they have their own lives and you want them to. And I knew for me, I was it was never gonna work for her to be told you can't, you can never, you know, I didn't want to demonize alcohol. She has had a long enough history with me as a sober mom and has and I've been extremely open. And she she got I got sober when she was five. So she's seen me for 12 years be a sober, safe present woman with a whole life.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:50

And I think that that I hope that that eventually just means more than anything I could tell her.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Yeah, because I think there's that whole, and it's a it's a fine line. Like, do you let them drink in the house because you don't want them to be going out and like getting into sticky situations, or you know, then there's the opposite side where you're just like you should not drink. They're gonna do it anyway. Do you know what I mean? They're kids, they've gotta like they don't know that we're they don't think we're talking from wisdom when we're telling them stuff, they just think we're doing it to spoil the fun. So they're gonna do it anyway, you know.

SPEAKER_06 16:26

But it's like we're just I don't have all the answers. Uh the only thing I've told her is you will never get in trouble if you call me. Yeah, yeah, it will never get in trouble for being for if you are drinking, if you are drunk, if you are uh in uh really bad shape, you're never gonna get in trouble if you call me. You will get in a world of trouble if you are driving with someone who's been drinking, or if you drive and have been drinking. That's like game over to me. But you're not gonna get in trouble if you call me. And she's really open with me. Like we've talked about it already. And I think she is she was relieved to have those conversations. Like, I know that she's tried it. I know that when she goes to parties, there's there's alcohol there. I know that her friends drink. I, you know, so I don't know. I don't have any answers. It's just one of those things where you you do the thing that makes the most sense in the moment.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

And of course, and sometimes it's wrong, sometimes it's bang on and it's right. But like going back to the saying, I I like I've told the oldest one. Well, I've told both of them. The older ones, like, you know, if you're out, even if even if there's no drink involved, but you're in a situation where you're not comfortable and you want away, like I will never be drinking. So no matter what time of day it is, phone me and I will, if I'm asleep, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna get in the car and I'm gonna come and get you. Like that's totally end of it.

SPEAKER_06 17:40

And we don't have to talk about it. You can I'll just pick you up. Yeah, pick you up.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

We can talk if you want to talk, but if you don't, we get you home and we get you safe, and that's it. End of, you know, you know, that's it.

SPEAKER_06 17:50

I think that's the best thing you can do. I don't know. There's no great answers. All I know is my daughter is not doing the things that I was fucking doing.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Well, I think they're different.

SPEAKER_06 17:59

And that is a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

I think they're different now, Laura. I'm sure there are people out there that are getting completely smashed and doing drugs and all that, but I think the majority of them, they're a bit more conscious. They're conscious that people have phones, so they don't want to do stupid things and get that like passed around WhatsApp or you know, whatever the kids are using, TikTok, whatever. You know, I'm an old man, but it's like, you know, we don't they they there's they're so conscious that if they get into an absolute state, that's gonna be, you know, around the internet and they don't want that.

SPEAKER_06 18:27

So yeah, and they're they're more health conscious, they're more conscious of mental health. They are they have conversations uh in the culture about drinking that were never in the culture about drinking when we were kids. Um they're just it's it is, it's different, and it's also true. I mean, Gen Z drinks less than any prior generation that's known.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

So that's it's an absolute fact. And I think it's because they have like a library on their in the on the palm of their hand, they can Google it. Is alcohol bad for me? And you know, you do that, and it's gonna come up with a shitload of things that says, yeah, alcohol's there is no safe level of drinking alcohol. So they'll be like, huh, okay. So I don't smoke, and drinking's nearly as bad for me, if not worse, you know, if I do that longevity. So anyway, Laura, so how was your kind of college years?

SPEAKER_06 19:19

College was um, I was one thing about my story is I I had very disordered eating, and that like interplayed with drinking a lot. And so my college years were spent in a lot of pain because I had like gained a bunch of weight and all I was focused on was trying to like change my body, but I also my problems with alcohol or my sort of reliance on alcohol started in earnest then because it was the only way I could escape the shame that I was feeling all the time. And if I wanted to have any social life, I had to drink. There was no option not to drink, and I liked it and I had a lot of fun doing it. So it was this constant, like impossible balancing act. Um, I started to blackout a lot in college. I started to notice that I drank differently than others. Like I, in the sense that I wanted to, I always wanted to get really drunk. I never wanted to just have a couple. And I could never really control it once I started. And I noticed that I felt like I would have felt more ashamed the next day. Like I noticed other people could just like laugh it off, or at least it seemed like they could. I was just inner turmoil. Like, what did I do? What did I say? Am I okay? Who's mad at me? You know, that stuff started in college. And it's so sad. I you know, it's so sad because I I I ruined a lot of time, but um, I wasn't very happy.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

It sounds like you're you're you've got like kind of mental health issues and and kind of an eating issue, and you're using the alcohol, a to have fun and go out, but you're also forgetting your problems with it. So it's already become a tool at that point.

SPEAKER_06 21:21

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Yeah, yeah, totally. And did you know that? Like I know we'd say it's looking back with hindsight, it's like great, but at the time, did you know that you were kind of self-medicating, I suppose, for an easier time?

SPEAKER_06 21:32

God, you know, it's so hard to answer those questions because it's like you do and you don't.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:38

I knew on some level, but I didn't really know.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Yeah. And I guess it's it's like because we you're saying it's a superpower, so it's like, well, I know that I can do this to sort to sort that problem out and to let me escape a little bit from the issues that I'm dealing with in my head, but I guess you didn't know the Dangers, like I didn't know the dangers until I quit. So I was like, Well, what harm am I doing? Like, I smoked and I knew that was bad for me. And I was like, But I'll I'll give up before you know it kind of kills me or whatever. But like with alcohol, I didn't think there was an issue. I thought maybe I'll get cirrhosis when I'm in my 60s or 70s. But I didn't quite know how I didn't know anything of the dangers at that point. So I was like, Well, you know, I'm a bit of a lush, I drink a lot, and but I don't have to party. And actually, you know, I'm holding down my job, I've got friends, you know, I have girlfriends or whatever, but I'm okay, you know. So I didn't know how bad it was.

SPEAKER_06 22:34

That's that's I think you're pointing to something that's true for me too. Where I didn't even though I knew maybe I drank differently and I worried about it sometimes, I never really thought I had a problem with drinking. It wasn't like I'm gonna I'm gonna turn into an alcoholic. Like that that was nowhere in my conscience, like that that was a possibility at all. And I guess because of the it was like I will control it when I feel like it. I'll do it, I'll you know, I can and I did have I still had a full life. I that's that that was true for me always. Even at the end, I had a really good job and I had I was always you know very functional. Um, and that's good and bad. I was a really good actor.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Yeah. It's yeah, because when it be and I and I I I like and I hate that word functional because I was to a point um and then I wasn't, but like the word functional is like you're not you're not you're you might be just functioning like on the bare bones of it, but like there's so much more potential that you're missing out on because you're literally just joining the dots, but you're not painting a picture, you know.

SPEAKER_06 23:55

Oh yeah, no, 100%. I mean, that's my whole that is the that is the great epiphany of sobriety for me. Is how much potential I would like I always say you kind of know what you're gonna get back if you stop drinking, or what what damage you're not gonna be causing, at least. Like, okay, I'm gonna feel better for sure. I'm gonna not be hung over every day, and that comes with a whole host of things that's that are good. I'm gonna sleep better. I'm not gonna wake up regretting things I said or did. I'm going to probably function or perform better at work. I my relationships will be less messy. Like, you know, all those things. Those are knowns. And but there's a whole host of things that you can't even imagine are are possible for you when you quit drinking. Even people who don't drink that much, that's true for, because there's this hidden layer that you you never access if you're consistently numbing yourself.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. And it's like, even if you're just having a few, and I never saw the point, like, you know, you're still feeling a little bit rubbish the next day, and you're like, well, you know, I'll just and it's not just that, it's like I was gonna go and meet that friend for lunch, but you know what, I'm just gonna stay at home and I'm gonna have a duvet day or whatever, you know, and that you're you're missing out on parts of life as well, just because you had a few drinks the night before. And I know that's not the case with a with a lot of people. If they just have a few, that's fine. They're a different breed, but for me, like two drinks, what's the point? You know, because I didn't drink for the flavor or the taste, you know. I I think I pretended like sometimes, oh, I'm only gonna have that gin or I'm only gonna have that whiskey because it's the good stuff. I was kidding myself, you know. I was drinking to get blitzed, so it was kind of yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 25:47

Yeah, no, we like to pretend that we care about the the vintage and the quality of our drinks, but I didn't give I don't really give a shit.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

No, exactly. The vintage and the quality of a poison, it's uh it's just this whole marketing ploy. And I don't know, I I saw a post the other day and they were breaking this this this like I don't know, it was like 16-year-old whiskey scotch bottle, and it was inside this amazing case that you had to crack with a hammer to get into it, and then there was all these cameras around, and then they opened it, and I was like, it's freaking poison. Like, what are you guys playing?

SPEAKER_06 26:24

What is happening right now? Yeah, yeah. What is happening?

SPEAKER_02 26:27

So how was did you did you graduate and then and then get a job in your field? What what was your field? What did you what did you study at college?

SPEAKER_06 26:34

I studied in I studied business marketing and I did I did I moved to Boston um from Colorado right after school. I did get a a job in my field. Um nice and yeah, I mean it makes it sound very intentional, but I was it was it was sort of accidental and you know, I was 21, I was a baby, and I moved out here without a job and found an internship and they hired me. And then I just I was always really good at work. Um I was um I always got promotions and I ended up being going more into marketing and advertising, like on the agency side. I went to business school, I got married, I had uh my daughter, um, and it was really around like at the time that I got married, and and especially when I had my daughter, that my drinking changed significantly. Right. So that was through my 20s. Um, I got married when I was 30, no, 29, and had my daughter when I was 31. So I had gone through my 20s. My 20s were littered with problematic drinking, but but not enough. No one said anything to me really. You know, my friend I became known as the friend who people sort of had to babysit a lot, but not because you were in a blackout, maybe? Or yeah, because I was in a blackout and I would just I would lose shit and I would, you know, I was constantly just sort of messy, but I wasn't you don't I didn't stand out enough. It wasn't like my friends were saying, I'm not drinking with her, I'm not going out with her, it's too much. It was just like, oh yeah, Lawrence.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

No DUIs or anything like that.

SPEAKER_06 28:15

Not yet. Um, so my 20s were I know, and I I met my ex-husband, we got married, we drank together, and there were periods of time where I could take it or leave it in a way. I could drink a couple glasses of wine and leave a bottle on the counter for till it went sour, and I and it wouldn't matter. There were plenty of periods like that. Um and I also, you know, I'm I ran marathons and I'm like a very physically active person. So I've always exercised. I've um I've always done a lot of things. And so it wasn't uh there were a lot of ways to point to my life and say, like, I'm I'm great, I'm doing great.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

I'm taking the boxes.

SPEAKER_06 29:01

Huh?

SPEAKER_02 29:02

I'm taking the boxes, yeah. I'm taking the boxes, and I ran marathons and then finished it and then would go and get blitzed. And it's like, but I've just run 26.2 miles, so um there's no problem here, you know. Like, have you done that?

SPEAKER_06 29:14

Yeah, can you get up and run 13 miles?

SPEAKER_02 29:16

So I'm winning. Right.

SPEAKER_06 29:18

Yeah. And I when I had my daughter, things really changed. Um, I was I had a really rough postpartum sort of depression and anxiety. I um could barely eat. The drinking, it felt like the drinking stopped working, like alcohol hit my body differently, and I had to start to drink more, but drinking more was dangerous at that point because I was responsible for a a baby, and um my marriage was not doing well.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

And um, did you did you sorry Laura, did you stop through the pregnancy?

SPEAKER_06 29:55

I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:57

And I hated it.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:59

That was the first time I noticed, like, holy shit. I'm getting it. I rely on this in a very I rely not not just on it, but the idea of it that I can drink as a way to take the edge off. If I know when it's coming, I know that there's like a release valve, at least in the future. And not having that for nine months was really, really painful and hard.

unknown 30:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

It's a long time. And you know, I speak to a lot of women in the podcast, but they all, I think, yeah, like 90% of them stopped for the pregnancy and then, you know, breastfeeding and then counting down the days until they could start again. But it's weird how we well, I say we how how you know women can stop for the nine months or however long afterwards, but then it's it's because it's gonna harm the baby, but then suddenly we we you put it back in yourself to to harm yourself.

SPEAKER_06 30:52

Well, none of this makes sense, right? This isn't like you're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Why is it gonna harm a child and not harm a person?

SPEAKER_06 30:57

Like Right. I I mean for me, uh and plenty of women do drink through their pregnancy, so no shame to any of that because I I get it. For me, it was I physically felt ill. I couldn't like alcohol made me wretch. So I don't know what the case would have been if that if that was and I also had people watching me, like I had enough social uh pressure and sort of consciousness in myself to to not do it, but I wanted to, and it was painful not to. And then I didn't, you know, I breastfed for three months, that was it. And I um I was counting down the days, and so was everyone else I knew. Every person, every woman that had been pregnant was like can't they can't wait to just be be able to drink again.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I mean with you, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:51

Yeah, exactly. So it just changed. It changed after that, and hangovers are very different when you are a parent, and I started to get really scared of myself, and and the wheels came off very quickly. So my husband and I um separated when my daughter was three. I got a DUI about a year later, and then um, so that was in 2013. I got the DUI in May of 2013, and then in July I had what I would consider my bottom. It wasn't the end of my drinking, but it started me on the path of sobriety. And that's I went to a wedding with my daughter. I write about this in my first book, um, and I've talked about it a lot. So if I just say it as though it's not a big deal, it's because it's only because I've talked about it so much that I don't have shame around it anymore. It's just something like that.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

I get that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:44

Um, I left her alone, my four-year-old daughter in a hotel room alone overnight because I was blacked out. And my mom, she found my mother, who was also staying at the hotel. It was my brother's wedding, and found my brother. And um, you know, I was I woke up to texts and calls from my family saying, Where the hell are you? You know, your daughter, my daughter is with them. And it was the most terrific day of my life, um traumatizing and awful. And I was also more, what was it more? But I was I was alarmed at the fact that I had this had happened to my daughter, the person I love most in the world, and I never thought I would ever do anything to harm her. And I also was really pissed that I was caught.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Yeah. Like double-edged sword, like like I'm so gutted, but also you found out like I could have got back, and you guys would have never known, and she'd have been okay, hopefully. You know what I mean? Like now you're watching me. You're pissed, and now you've now I've got this like hundred eyes on me to say, right, the drinking is and it and had anyone said obviously you've had the DUI, so people were watching you already, but now it's like 104.

SPEAKER_06 34:08

Yeah, it was just different. I it was still there were only a couple people that had really you had to be really close to me to really notice how bad it was. Um, my best friend had said something to me, my ex-husband certainly said something to me, but everyone else, you know, people kind of keep they they want to protect their own drinking too, and so they're not gonna call you out on yours.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:31

Um, and also I was drinking alone a lot at that point. I was drinking at home. You know, I would go out and behave enough, and then I would come home and drink and take ambient and black out. And it was just it was uh it was a lot of it was a lot of private sort of drinking at that stage. And uh yeah, I was I was pissed that I was caught. I was pissed that people were watching me now, and that scared me. That and the fact of what happened scared me enough that I went to my first AA meeting and um a couple weeks later, and that started me on the path to sobriety. Uh I it took me a a year plus to finally have my last day one, but I learned a lot in that year, and I spent a lot of that year sober, actually. I just wasn't it was I wasn't ready, it was so fucking hard.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

Yeah, yeah. If you're not ready, like I was wasn't for a long time, like the relapses like I would do like maybe a week or three weeks or a month and then go back, but every time I went back, it just got more and more a grip on me, and just and like, and then you're like, I can't do this. Do you know what I mean? It was like each time I was like, What is the point? I might as well just give up and just drink because I can't it's too hard, you know?

SPEAKER_06 35:55

Yeah, no, there was no relief left in it. I knew too much, and everyone know, you know, all the people that I cared about most, my mom, my dad, my my dad, my brother, my friends knew what had happened at the wedding. Like no one was gonna drink freely with me anymore. And so I wasn't I I had been s sort of canceled from that uh part of life.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

Um but it's like we're forced to take it underground. And when I say underground, I mean like you know, hiding it maybe in the house, or if you're in the house on your own with your daughter, then you can drink freely. For me, it was like having a having a bottle of wine with my ex-partner, where we'd both be having a couple of glasses. She wouldn't drink most of it, but I think she'd drink some of it so that I wouldn't drink the whole lot. But I had a bottle of vodka in the bathroom hidden, so I was just going and topping up with that. So it was like I was, even though I was drinking with her, I was still solo drinking, you know, because she was totally totally yes, I relate to that completely.

SPEAKER_06 36:54

No, I wasn't there wasn't another, you know, I had very close taps on who knew that I was supposed to be drinking, not drinking, who didn't. I I purposely didn't tell certain people, like people I worked with, you know, and those mental gymnastics are are exhausting. Yeah. Um, this comp constant like compartmentalization of your reality and and your identity, I it is part of what made me so tired. And I eventually was like, I just I just want one fucking version of me in the world. I can't do this anymore. I just want one version, yeah. Not however many there are.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

And all this the the time you were going, was it AA that you were going to the meetings? Or yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:38

So you were so I started in AA, I went to meetings. I I didn't, you know, I loved parts of it, really didn't like other parts of it, but it was it saved my life. There were a lot of really beautiful people there in Boston, and um, it was my first community, and I got I got sober in AA meetings.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

And it's a tribe, isn't it? I mean, you guys probably a bit different from I mean, I'm on the Isle of Man and we've got our meeting here. We're talking maybe 20 people at the tops. Like you're you're probably looking at meetings of like 50, hundreds of sometimes, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:10

I mean, the small town that I live in now where I actually got sober finally, the meetings are tiny and everyone knows each other, and that's really where I got to that's really where I got sober.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Yeah. And I think that's the best part when you know everyone in that room and you see the newcomer come in, and it's like, oh, someone's getting their, you know, their kind of week chip or their newcomer chip. And you're just you're just praying that they're gonna come back week on week. You know, you've done your bit, you've got your three months, your six months, your year, and you're just you, you're you're feeding off of the new people coming in, if that makes sense. It's almost like you're taking their energy and giving it back. And I just love that as well. Like, I don't go to the meetings anymore. I did it militantly for the first year or two, I think. But you know, after a while I was like, I need to move on to like the next phase, and I know they're there if I need them, but I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna start moving on to different things. So yeah, same. How was that first couple of months, three months for you then? I mean, I mean, did you have a rot bottom moment or terrible?

SPEAKER_06 39:17

No, I I didn't.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

I was the rot bottom moment was probably leaving your daughter in the hotel room lesbian.

SPEAKER_06 39:22

It was, and there were many indignities after that, but they were really just I was just drinking alone. I was wrecked, I was sad, I was um in a lot of pain, grief. I didn't want to give up everything I thought that alcohol was giving me and that it had given me for a long time.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 39:43

Um and so the thing that happened for me though was I started writing um about what was going on with me. And um I started publishing my writing. And I started a podcast with a friend Holly Whitaker, who was getting sober at the same time. And we that podcast got really big. Um, it was called Home. It is it's still out there, and there weren't many podcasts out there at the time.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Um what year was this? Sorry, this is 2015. Wow. So yeah, you've got well, 11 years now.

SPEAKER_06 40:22

11 years, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Yeah, well done. Well done, amazing.

SPEAKER_06 40:25

So when I when I Holly and I started the podcast when I was about five months sober.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:29

Um, so I really like I credit writing and talking. Um, I just I had so many things to say about this experience. Um the uh about addiction, about alcohol culture, about women and drinking, about motherhood and drinking, about AA and not AA. And I just for whatever reason, by luck or fate or something, I had a lot to say, and so did she. And I just started talking. And I had always wanted to be a writer, I'd dreamt of it, and I I began to chase that, like kind of the way I was chasing drinking. I I just ended up switching careers and you know, two years into sobriety, left my corporate career to take a shot at what I'm doing now, and you know, published two books, and it's been it it really um, you know, we talked earlier about this sort of potential that's there. Like I I call it the bigger yes. Like there's this, there's all kinds of no's. We have to, you know, there's a the no to alcohol, and then there's all the other no's that you have to throw out in order to stop something. But eventually I had to run towards something. It wasn't gonna work otherwise. And I wanted to I wanted to write.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:04

And and I chased that, and I chased it like with everything I had. Um so that those first you asked how the first months were. I mean, in part they were terrible. I never had a pink cloud, I never had that like great, this is awesome feeling that a lot of people had. I had it later, you know. I I but I never had never experienced that. I was pissed, I was really mad and sad. Um, I thought that no one would ever love me again. I thought that I would be boring, I thought so many things, but I also at the same time felt something really significant growing in me and happening, and that was this becoming of being a writer and all of the other seeds of potential that were opening. I would glimpse what it was like to be a safe mom and to be to show up for my daughter in moments where I would have otherwise been passed out or just not able to be present with her. I felt like I got my brain back. Um and so work was just I was like just killing it at work and not having, you know, I didn't like not all the other fancy stuff aside or like big stuff aside, just waking up without creating more destruction was a fucking revelation. Like I get to wake up and and not have to apologize or feel the gnawing, clawing anxiety of what happened the night before. That that's the stuff that carried me through. Yeah, yeah, those first months.

SPEAKER_02 43:59

And Do you think there was anything that kind of scared you about getting sober? I mean, other than you know like not being able to have a drink. You know?

SPEAKER_06 44:13

You did it scare me. I mean maybe scared's quite uh well I definitely my first two thoughts when I knew I would had to I was gonna have to stop. I knew that. One was what if I'm boring?

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:33

And two, who's gonna love me? Like no one's gonna love me anymore. Um I was single at the time, I was separated or divorced from my husband, and I just thought no one's gonna want me. So yeah, I was afraid of those things.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Yeah. Like how are you gonna socialize and meet people and you know, all of those things? No one's gonna want me. Yeah, like we're I guess there wasn't the same community, maybe, that there is now online of you know, sober people. It's like even in the five years that I've been sober, it's grown massively. And now it's oh my god, there was nothing new. Yeah, nothing. You're like one of the pioneers with your podcast, which is a great podcast. I might add, you know, I have I have listened to a number of episodes, and it's it's fantastic, but it was like you guys were doing it when podcasts were in their infancy, you know. Now there's like you know, ten of penny.

SPEAKER_06 45:25

Um it's great, which is awesome. I'm so glad that there's so many, they're sober influencers now. Like, there was no such thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:33

Yeah, even influencers were was a was a couple of things.

SPEAKER_06 45:37

There were influencers were not a thing. Instagram was still pretty nasy.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

It was just people sharing photos for friends, it wasn't like a big thing.

SPEAKER_06 45:45

Like I would share quotes and write little miniature sort of blog posts. Like Instagram was where I first started to process everything that was going and on with me and getting sober, and it was so different. There weren't videos, there were it was like thank God, because I can't do Instagram like it is now.

SPEAKER_02 46:04

I mean, have you still got the same account as like you did back then?

SPEAKER_06 46:07

So if you go it was named something else then, it was named I Fly at Night. That was my blog name. But I yes, I still have the same one.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Yeah, because that's what I love about it, and it's like I mean, I've got another Instagram account which I don't really use, but that was just my personal one, it's full of crap. But like this one, I set it up I think 13 days after getting sober, and I was like, I'm just gonna do this for myself to hold me accountable and kind of document my journey, and I'm so glad I've done that. Every now and then I download it all from Instagram, so you know, in case it just gets hacked or lost or or or whatever, you know, because it's like I don't want to lose all that. It's a record of your experience, absolutely, and I think you know, as the community's grown, um, you know, with with pioneers like yourself, it's just amazing for the the newbies coming through to just go hashtag sober and then see what comes up because, like, yeah, you know, AA for you, NA, and a bit of AA for me, smart meetings, but some people, a majority of younger people as well, don't want to go to those meetings, they want to do things on their own, in their house, you know, and not be as maybe outspoken about it. So they want to have like a private account. But as long as they're getting content that's you know, giving them affirmations and fulfilling them and listening to podcasts, like I love the fact that there's there's thousands of podcasts because not everyone is suitable for for everyone, you know. So they'll be like, Oh, I found this one and this one works for me. I don't like that one because it's not on my vibe or values or whatever. So yeah, it's great that there's so many. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_06 47:39

Yeah, no, it's wonderful. I I marvel at the change that can happen in 11 years, it's it's shocking.

SPEAKER_02 47:47

And who knows what it's gonna be like in the next 11 years, you know? I know, it's insane. Um I know. Do you so who did you like who were you without alcohol? And did you start to embrace that person and like that person? Like, how long did that process take? Because you said you didn't really get the pink cloud at the beginning, and was it you know, a little while? Like for me, I did get the pink cloud, and I'm not trying to say, Oh, look at me, but I know you really embraced you didn't control that.

SPEAKER_06 48:14

I I don't think you had control over one of those things. It's physiology, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So so did you like who you were becoming without without the drink?

SPEAKER_06 48:23

And I did. Yes. Um I did for the most part. I mean, that's a sort of ever-evolving identity.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Of course. Still, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 48:38

Um, I found like the things that came back right away that I that I loved were I laughed a lot. Like I I think I have a pretty good sense of humor, and I've always loved to laugh, but man, I laughed harder and more often when I got sober. I um I was sharper, certainly. I had sort of a manic, you know, that newly sober energy is like it is intense. And I had that. I had I kind of like that anyway. I have kind of big energy, but I had like that's what helped me create so much in that time. So I liked that. It was a it was a lot to manage, but I liked it for the most part, I guess. I loved that I was someone who could be counted on more than anything. I liked that that was the person I was becoming. The person my daughter was safe with, the person that if I said I was gonna do something, I was gonna do it for the most part. I could keep my word, I could trust myself to schedule something at nine in the morning and show up. I never, I mean, everything revolved around alcohol before. It's like, am I gonna be hungover? Am I gonna want to be drinking? Am I gonna, I mean, it was where where are we gonna go?

SPEAKER_02 50:03

What are we eating? And if we're eating, where can we are we going to a restaurant? Are we going to a cafe or a you know, a bar where I can eat and drink? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 50:13

It managed it, I mean, the way I looked at it is the the the sort of question that I a lot of people ask, is it bad enough? You know, is the drinking bad enough that I have to change? And like that's an okay question, but there's a better question, which is like, is this good enough for me to stay the same? And that could apply to almost anything in your life. But then the the real question underneath it all is like, am I free? Am I free with this thing in my life? And I was not free with alcohol, it could it controlled everything about how I lived. So I started to feel more freedom about everything. And then, you know, the things that I didn't like very much that took longer were like I had no social battery for a while. I was very uncomfortable in my skin. I was tired. I had burned like the candle at both ends for so long that my body and my brain needed, like, I mean, I felt like that for about five, seven years. I just had no, I was also raising a kid and trying to build a career. There was a lot going on, but I kind of thought, oh, I'm just a total introvert and I didn't know it. But I think I think it was just a major recalibration. Like I've noticed in the past couple of years that I am way more social than I was before. So, you know, we we change, we ebb and flow and and go through seasons. I think I also yeah, I mean, I can say I for the most part, I really deeply appreciate who I am now.

SPEAKER_04 51:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 51:52

Um I have parts of my life where I still struggle. Relationships like romantic relationships are still hard for me. I don't always love how I show up in that space, mostly how I show up for myself. You know, it's not so much what I do to another person, but it's like holding on to myself in those cases is very hard. Um there are still ever-evolving things that we work on, but I god, I can't even recognize the person that I am now.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

Yeah. And I think for me essentially, and I'm five and a half years, so social interaction, like I'm great when it's a smallish group of people. And if there's no alcohol, like I'm okay with people drinking around me, that's not a problem. But only in the early stages, do you know what I mean? Once it gets a little bit later and they get a little bit not making much sense and things like that. Like, I love the deep and meaningful conversations that I can have with people at the beginning of the night, you know, because I never had that when I was drinking. It was always just like, who's coming out with the next gag? And I'm not really listening to you, I'm waiting until you shut up before I can tell you my anecdote from the week that's probably about someone's misfortune. Do you know what I mean? Horrible kind of stuff. But it's like now I'm like, yeah, if it's a small group of people, I'm like, yeah, this is this is perfect. I love it, I love socializing. But when it comes to big, big parties and things where there's lots of booze, I'm like, I'm not gonna go. Or if I do go, I'm only gonna go for like a couple hours just to show my face and then and then I'm done with that, you know. And my my wife doesn't really drink a lot, and I think she struggles with with that with me because she's never really been a big drinker, so she's okay with that. She's got used to it, where she's like, you know, but you are sober, you've been sober five years, and you say that you're social, and I'm like, yeah, but you know what, it's just big groups of people. I'm like, not really bothered about it, and I'm okay with that. That's the thing. Like, you know, I wouldn't call myself antisocial, but I'm okay with that. But I love having like one-on-one with friends, going out for coffee and just having a good old, like getting right into it, you know. That's that's what I love doing because it's meaningful, it has it has connection and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 54:01

Yeah, no, same. I don't love big groups, I don't love um I can get super overstimulated really fast, and it's just not fun.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

And I think a lot of people are the same, but because they're using alcohol, they're okay, you know?

SPEAKER_06 54:17

100%. That's why people drink so much in social situations, because it is overstimulating. It's not something that you may naturally like, and so alcohol does a great job of making it comfortable.

SPEAKER_03 54:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 54:30

But then you remove that and you're like, ugh.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Yeah, I've where's my where's my super force field gone? I'm I'm I'm open. Like I was listening to a guy on a podcast the other day, and he was he still goes out with friends and that, but he's like, you know, if he's out past 12, it's a it's a weird one for him. And he says, like walking back through the city, he said, It's weird. I'm out of my comfort zone. He said, It's like a hellscape out there because there's people walking into doors and falling over, and he's like, It's just like when you're a sober person, you are not frightened, but you're just like, Man, this is madness, and it's yeah, you know, but when you're honored it's sort of violent feeling, it's like there's just yeah, yeah, a good way of putting it. It's like that underlying tension that it could kick off at any time, and you're like, like if we go out for dinner in the city, we're like, right, we'll we'll have our dinner quite early and then we'll we'll head out of there because you know, Island Man's fairly safe place, but you still see a lot of drunken people wandering down the street, and me being from Glasgow, I'm like, yeah, this could kick off at any time, you know. I've always got my my kind of my ear to the ground kind of thing, so yeah. What um what surprised you most about sober life, Laura?

SPEAKER_06 55:43

Oh man, um that's a great question. Just how much was there? I I really, really thought that I went to there's a story I tell in my first book about this woman who became my sponsor, actually, and she was one of the first women I met in AA, and we she took me to my first dinner sober, like where I didn't drink. We went to a restaurant in Boston and I was absolutely crawling out of my skin. Hadn't not drank at a restaurant for like 20 years.

SPEAKER_04 56:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:21

And it felt awful, and I wanted to leave, and I I just was marveling that she was like enjoying her food and like her she was in her body and she was at ease, yeah. At ease and not, I mean, I was vibrating like on the ceiling. I just was not okay. And um she I asked her at the end of dinner, I said, so is it better? Like, are you happy? And she put her hand on her phone and she said, I have like 15 people in here that I talk to almost every day that are like dear friends. And she said, It's it's a nice little life. And I remember hearing that at the time I heard it and I thought, I don't want a nice little life. I don't want I thought she was saying like the sober life was small.

SPEAKER_02 57:35

Yeah, like this'll do, I'm settling type thing.

SPEAKER_06 57:39

Yeah, and I came to understand exactly what she meant, and it was that she had peace and she was she could fall asleep at night and um feel good uh about herself and she was a dignified woman and she um was able to show up for people and her inner world was massive and she was traveling. I mean, there was nothing small about her life, it was simple though, and my life is simple now, but it's so much bigger than I ever was drinking. Drinking is a small life, it's a teeny tiny postage stamp size life.

SPEAKER_02 58:30

Yeah. Well, it's like what you said earlier, like it it's all consuming. So our life revolves around those bottles or glasses. That's it. So it's the the kind of radius of that, the circumferen the circumference of that, the orbit of that is tiny. Tiny, yeah, tiny. Whereas you take that out and your orbit goes massive.

SPEAKER_06 58:52

Yeah, and I didn't expect that. That that's a surprising thing for sure. I I was convinced that everyone that was sober had just sort of accepted it as their plight, and they were finding a way, they deluded themselves into believing that it was enough, but it wasn't really enough.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

I love that because so many people I don't I mean, I don't get it so much now, but back in the beginning when I guess people people know more about sobriety and recovery now because there are so many people like yourselves speaking about it online and and and and celebrities coming out about it. So people know more, but back back five and a half years ago, people were a bit more like, so are you gonna do this forever? Or, you know, um do you miss it? And all of these things. And I was kind of like, you know, I was learning how to answer them because I was like, no, no, I'm okay with this, and actually, my life is so much better without it. I wasn't kind of saying, and yours life, your life could be too, you know, I wasn't saying that, but it was like I just was like, I'm okay with this because and it's not that I'm just okay, it's like I am great without it.

SPEAKER_06 59:55

I'm deeply okay.

SPEAKER_02 59:57

Yeah, my life is like unfathomably better, and yes, but like because they're in it, and I'm not saying they're alcoholics or whatever, but because they're still in that lie of the drinking thing is great, it's like they're they're hearing my words, but they're not going in. They're not going in yet. Do you know what I mean? They're they're they're they're still thinking, yeah, I bet he wishes he could have a drink. Like, I'm really you can't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:22

It's you just can't know. It's like having it's like being a parent. You just you cannot possibly know what it's like without experiencing it. You can't know what's being sober is like until you've experienced it. It's you it's something you can read about, you can hear about it, you can try to imagine it, but you you don't have a visceral experience of it. Yeah, how would you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:44

Well, exactly. I'm I'm like, it's like taking the the the red pill in the matrix, you know, you start for what it's really like, and you don't have to be, you know, full-blown alcoholic or rock bottom or even gray drinker to to feel the benefits, like someone that's just drinking recreationally every now and then goes sober and there's just like I don't even think about it anymore. And it's a great feeling. I can drive everywhere, I can do this, and yeah, and it's do anything, go anywhere. Yeah, exactly. So what what role do you think that alcohol still plays in society?

SPEAKER_06 1:01:23

Interesting. Wow, there's different there's a lot of different ways to answer that. Um I don't think that alcohol is like a demonic force. Um I think it has a place. I don't think the place that it has is nearly as prominent as parts of culture would like it to be or think that it is. I mean the the word that keeps coming up into my mind is dark matter. Like everything has like we don't there's there's positive and negative, there's dark and light, there's and dark doesn't necessarily mean bad, it's just a contrast, right? Um I don't know that anything any any drug or uh is inherently bad. It's what we use it for, what we what it it comes to mean to us. Um I think that in theory there are parts of alcohol and and using it that are I don't even know if I believe this as I'm saying it. I was gonna say that they're relatively benign. But people who use it that way, I don't I think that's a very tiny, tiny percentage.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:07

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:08

Um so I I don't know. I I don't know that I have a great answer to that. I don't, I don't, I'm not like an abolitionist. I don't think it it's again like a demonic force. I just I don't really care about it. I I I'm like it's it sh I think we're on our way to seeing that it doesn't matter as much as we would have thought. I also think like for me, alcohol was a friend. It saved me. It saved me from things that I was not ready to feel that I couldn't have dealt with. It did give me a lot. It took a lot, but it gave me a lot too. And so I don't even like hate it. I don't hate that it I drank, I don't regret any of that. I don't regret 15 years of going down that. Um so I think in that sense, it also serves a role as like a dark teacher, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

Yeah. Um it is that like until it becomes a tool, and I guess it's a tool for confidence at the beginning, but like when we're young and we're going to parties and things like that, it's really hard to do that unless there's like these few minority people that can just go to a party and they're you know outgoing and full of joy and they're funny without alcohol. There's very few of them. Majority of us need a little bit of a boost and a bit of Dutch courage and all that. But that's the thing, it's you know, as I said at the beginning, I don't have any regrets, but it's when it becomes that that slippery slope, you know. Yeah, and and I think for me, like I don't hate alcohol. What I hate is how it's glamorized, and the big alcohol is basically lying to people. Like Annie Grace says in her book that she was gonna leave out a chapter about um I think like the you know, the health benefits, but there's no health benefits and all of that kind of stuff. But she did like a kind of pre-edit kind of review, and she got people to read it, and then like a lot of people were with that chapter was in, I think. I'm I'm I'm messing this up, but basically, a lot of people, like 90% of the readers came back on the test readers and said, We had no idea how bad alcohol was. Right. Like we have no idea because all it says in the bottles is drink responsibly. This is how many units you're meant to have a week, which is still a complete lie, whatever they're telling us. And that's the thing that I think annoys me about it. It's not the alcohol itself, because people can crack on and do what they want, but when they're not informed, that's when I get annoyed because I'm like they're out there. Doing it. Cigarettes, people know it's bad for you. And if you smoke, that's on you. Of course it is. You know, you see the pictures on the on the packets. But with alcohol, they're still glamorizing it, making it into this, like you know, beautiful, sophisticated thing, like what we're saying about expensive bottles of whiskey and all that. It's this class thing, it's this societal thing. But they're not telling people how bad it is for you. Like it thing are changing.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:23

Yeah, we were the things are changing for sure. But we were we were duped. I mean completely duped, bought and sold for 40 years. Yeah. Just like cigarettes were for a while. I mean, I think I think it is changing. I think that people are way more aware because the literature has come out, you know, there's a there was the huge um study that came out in 2016 that finally said there's no safe amount of alcohol. There's, you know, they they've they changed the guidelines here in the states. I don't know what they're doing uh over there, but it's changing. So yes, I get annoyed with that too. And I used to get very for many, many years, I was extremely worked up and and constantly pushing against that in a very public vocal way. I don't know that I have the steam for it anymore, but I feel it and I feel it for like I get it. I get I get that, and um it's true. It we were totally duped. I think there was something I wanted to add on to what you said. I probably lost it. I mean, I think I hate when that happens.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:37

Well, you think there, I think that I've heard a lot of people that are different stages of sobriety and they go through these different phases and things, and I'm totally in that phase of like like I as I said, I'm not hating on people that drink or alcohol itself, but I'm like just inform people. Like all I'm asking is put labels on the bottles to say, like, there is no safe level of this, it does cause you know, seven types of cancer, it was categorized as a class A carcinogen in 1988, like all of those things, put them on the bottles and be done with it. Do you know what I mean? People are not gonna struggle, like if the governments are worried that they're gonna lose a load of money, even though they're in the deficit for how much it it costs to get people into the hot in hospitals because the government pay for that over here in the health service. But if they it's not gonna happen overnight, not everyone's suddenly gonna wake up one morning with a label in the bottle and go, Well, I'm not gonna drink tonight. Of course they're still gonna drink, but it will, it will like I think I I looked at a study the other day, and in 2010 they put that was when they started putting the pictures on packets of cigarettes, and they've seen a decrease of I think 20%, and that's in 16 years, you know. So it's not happened overnight. People are still smoking away, they still love it, you know. Um I didn't stop when they put the labels on, but I have stopped now.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:57

So yeah, I think it's a it's a slow turn for sure. And I think we'll I I I actually have no doubt that we're gonna get there with alcohol. I think that's just the way it's gonna go. Um, and that's because people like you and uh the people at those phases in their sobriety are incensed to talk about it and they're mad, rightfully so, and they're they're frustrated and they're sad and they're you know, they're they've got the the fire for it because it fucks you up. It fucks people's lives up, and you see it every day.

unknown 1:09:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:35

And I've got the energy because I'm sober to do it, you know, the sober, the sober energy and the creativity. Um do you think there's any conversations that we should be having that we're we're not we're not having yet?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:46

Or I think there are there are a lot of conversations happening, which is awesome. So I can't I can't necessarily think of one that that's not being had, you know, one I would have said a while ago, one that wasn't being had, like when I was getting sober, is women in alcohol, motherhood in alcohol. That has changed. So I'm really glad that that conversation is happening. And um, you know, there's an insane that the non-alcoholic beverage industry is like blows my mind. Like you can go anywhere now, pretty much. You could um not drink at an occasion, and it's not a big deal. Yeah, that's nobody nobody questions wild. No, you could just I don't feel like drinking tonight or whatever the thing is. It's that was not how it was 10 years ago. So that is huge. Like that shows me massive, massive change can happen in a decade. Oh that gives me hope.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:49

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's just a testament to like, don't mean don't get me wrong, like I did I didn't drink alcohol-free stuff for the first year because when I was in rehab, they said we don't advise it, and I was like, I'll stick to that. Yeah, and then I did start trying like Guinea Zero's lovely, but then I'm like, because I'm still in that phase of like uh big alcohol. So I don't want to give them money. So I'm like, you know what, I'd rather have a fruit juice and all that, but I'm okay with that. But I also think that if people are out and they're still in that awkward phase where they're like, oh, you know, they want to have a nice glass, so they're if they've got an alcohol-free beer, that's a nice bottle, that's that's perfectly good, you know.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:28

Or just normalizing not drinking alcohol. That's what what I see as the the major shift. Yeah, it's just as viable as a choice as drinking, and you have options and you don't have to have this awkward conversation about I'm not drinking tonight because more people are doing it. Yeah, there's I can't tell you how many of my friends have just either cut down or they just don't do it, and they don't they never had a problem. Not like me. They just they're like it's not working for me anymore. I'm you know hangovers are getting really I'm 50 years old and I don't fucking want to feel that way anymore. Yeah, but but so it gives you something to hold in your hand that is good and that feels like you're still part of like that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:15

Yeah, that shift is huge, so huge, and I still sometimes every now and then want someone to say to me, Oh, they're not having an alcoholic drink, why not? Because I, you know, I've got it ready for them. But yeah, ready to go.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:29

They don't ask me that, and I'm like, No, the number of times I've been asked that is so tiny compared to the amount that I expected to be asked, expected to be asked, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:38

But it's as you say, it's the shift, it's the shift, and like I'm still looking forward to getting pulled over by the police to get breathalyzed. That's not happened.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:47

Like I've been pulled over, it's quite exciting.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:50

Yeah, have you been drinking today, sir? No, I haven't drank for five and a half years. Yeah, come at me, come at me, yeah, yeah. Um Laura, do you regret getting sober? No, no, no, not a chance, not a chance. Uh, one piece of advice for someone at day one.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:10

Keep it so simple.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:14

Like you have one job today, it's just to not not drink. Do whatever else you need to do to make that happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:20

Absolutely. Brilliant. One habit that keeps you steady.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:26

Um, moving your body, yeah. Yeah. I I'm not a I'm not a well person without that.

unknown 1:13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:36

It's got to be done though. That's the thing, you know. That's one of those things that people in the beginning, like if they're having a craving, go move.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:43

Go walk.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:44

Go walk, yeah. Prove to your body that you're still alive and that you don't need that. Go for a walk. Don't walk past the liquor store. You'll be okay. Right? Yeah, yeah. Um a podcast, a film, or a book um about recovery or hope. Um but put your two books in the in the show notes as well.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:02

So something other uh podcast. That's tough because I don't listen to a lot of recovery podcasts. I know a good one. Okay. Just for like beautiful, inspirational, lovely conversation. John O'Donahue on On Being Podcast with Krista Tippett. Look it up. It's one of my I listen to it every year at the beginning of the year. It's uh I think it's called a it's something about beauty is in the title. Okay. Um if you search it, you'll find it. It's my one of my favorite conversations. Um podcast movie. Um does it have to be about recovery?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:48

No, no, just something that's like like I said, uh, or hope as well. So something that's just beautiful that's coming in.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:53

Something that the one of the most beautiful films that I've ever seen, and it's recent and it changed me, was called is called Sentimental Value. It's uh Norwegian film really extraordinary and it is hopeful.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:11

Um, and then book, oh man.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:16

So many.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:17

So many. But this is a great question, let me think. Um I will go with a recovery book. Um my and I just read it again recently. My favorite uh recovery book is Drinking a Love Story by Carolyn Knapp. Um it she documents the internal emotional experience of addiction and sobriety better than anyone I've ever read.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:55

Yeah, yeah. It's a great book. Yeah, yeah, I love it. Great, yeah. And lastly, Laura, one word that describes your life now.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:09

The word that came to mind was everything. Like it gets to be everything all the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:16

And not it's just everything, it's not limited anymore. Yeah, that means the bad stuff too, or the painful stuff too, but I want that.

unknown 1:16:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:27

Like people said to me at the beginning, like, what are you gonna do now you don't drink? And I'm like, everything else. I haven't done everything else yet, but I've done a lot, you know, a lot more than I did when I was, you know, fat steadfast to the bottle. Yeah, crazy. Yeah, yeah. Uh Laura, it's been an absolute pleasure getting to know you, chatting with you, like two old Celtics, Celtic warriors, Celtic. And I didn't sorry, I don't mean old, I mean as an old in the Celtic vibe is old. Hey, you know, silver warriors.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:57

Yeah, I'm certainly not young, so I'll take it.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:00

Yeah, well, you're looking for you.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:02

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:04

That was really fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:05

Cool. Um, catch you soon.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:07

Okay, bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:09

Bye. Thank you so much, Laura. An absolute pleasure having you on the podcast and just hearing your story. Um, you know, I know it's gonna help a lot of people. Um, I guess one of my takes from this episode was uh that both Laura and I knew we liked to drink and we were probably drinking more than we should, but where was the harm? You know, what what was it doing? We had no idea the dangers medically that it might have been causing us. And even if we were just functioning, it's not about that. It's it's about the potential that we were missing out, the squandering of of our potential that you know, by just functioning, what what what what were we missing out on in life, you know? And you know, like look at what Laura's doing. She's she's an author, you know, she's she's an absolute pioneer in the in the sober community, and and following our dream now, you know, because she always wanted to be a writer and now she's doing that through not just being a functioning addict, and and that's that's what it is. So we need to be surpassing our goals and making the best of our life. Um that we're you know, and living in alcohol, it's just holding us back no matter who you are. Trust me, it's it's just not you know, it's not bringing you any joy, it's not bringing you any groundbreaking, goal-breaking uh aspects to your life. So, you know, that's that's that was my kind of main take from it. Laura's just got a great story, um, and as I say, she's doing so amazing things. She's got that uh, you know, she set up a group um in 2020, she founded the luckiest club. So, you know, all of these things I'll put in the show notes. So uh just keep an eye out for that. And uh yeah, thanks again for uh listening to today's episode, guys. Um going well here. You know, sober seasons is going strong, so if you do uh want to give up for 90 days, then you know find us on Facebook. It's uh it's just called Sober Seasons, and it's a private group with some amazing support. So yeah, go and go and give us a give us a hit up there. And uh yeah, guys, just hit the five-star review. Um, really kind of pushing this out there because you know, I want a lot of people to listen to the podcast because these stories are real, they're raw, there's no fluff, and I just think that they're gonna be helping people. So if you put you know, five-star review, put a comment, it's just gonna help more people find the podcast and uh get us out there. So uh please do that, guys. Um, yeah, until next week, stay safe, stay sober, and stay supportive. Thanks again to Laura and love you all guys. Peace out.