Episode 69 - Emma Newman

Emma quit drinking over ten years ago, long before sobriety became a trend or a wellness choice. Back then, choosing not to drink often raised eyebrows, and the only visible routes were AA or rehab. Emma chose neither, instead carving out her own path—without quit lit, podcasts, or a sober community to lean on.

By day, she’s a mum to two teenagers (and two cats) and works for a disability charity. In her spare time, she’s become a passionate advocate for alcohol-free drinks, supporting the category from its earliest days. Today, Emma is a regular judge of alcohol-free categories and writes about non-alcoholic drinks, bringing both lived experience and a sharp critical palate to a category that’s come a long way since she started.

You can find Emma on instagram at:

https://www.instagram.com/emma_sobersonic?igsh=MXVhY2JraXdodWhzbw==

And Emma’s linktree at:

https://linktr.ee/emma_sobersonic

Love Sober Podcast

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/love-sober-podcast/id1379018341

The Outrun - Amy Liptrot

https://amzn.eu/d/06LpGWum

Wild - Cheryl Strayed

https://amzn.eu/d/00v410CZ

Dry - Augusten Burroughs

https://amzn.eu/d/0iEP1EZs

Wintering - Katherine May

https://amzn.eu/d/0fOgxG4L

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Emma, welcome to After Hours. How are you today?

SPEAKER_02 0:22

I'm really good, thank you, Jimmy. I'm really good. And just before we um we jumped on, I was thinking, how nice, because it's five o'clock, it's it's dark, it's wintry, it's it's Friday. And I was thinking, how nice to just be like, oh, really looking forward to a chat over a cup of tea.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Rather than thinking, oh god, how long's this gonna take? When's it gonna be finished? And then I can open my bottle of wine in the floor.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Or get down the get down the pub. I mean, yeah, because it's it's Friday night we're recording this, so you know, it's uh yeah. I mean, I am going out tonight actually. It's a friend of mine who's sober. She was actually episode one of the podcast, Joe, really good friend, known her for you know since the beginning. Um, and it was her birthday a couple of weeks ago, so we're just gonna go out and have a little pizza dinner to tonight and just catch up. So I am going out, but it'll be completely like sober night, uh a bit of pizza, some soft drinks. She'll maybe have a Heineken Zero and then you know, home before ten o'clock or so.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Yeah, yeah, lovely. Yeah, we're we're we're going out tonight as well. One of um one of my husband's favourite pop-ups is it gonna be in um sort of a place not too far away. So yeah, we'll we'll go there. I've just got one child because the other one's away. Um yeah, pop out, have a bite to eat. I'll probably drive home, don't have a problem with that, and I'll have I'll have a few few drinks tonight when I get back because you know I love an alcohol-free drink. So uh well that's your thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:51

So yeah, we'll get into that. Emma, it's do you know what it's so good to kind of finally chat to you because like we were saying off air, I had a look online on our Instagram, and it was September 2020 when we started following each other, and I was I think you said when we were off air, I was 28 days when I messaged you. So I think I followed you. You messaged you, you followed me back, and then did I message you, or how did it how did the interaction go?

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Yeah, I had a little look. So you'd followed me, yeah, and I've messaged you to say thanks for the follow, which has now made me go, Oh god, I just don't do that anymore when people do, and I should. Um so actually that's a really good reminder. Um, and I must have had a little look at your account, seeing that you just posted about 28 days, so I said, Oh, well done on that, and you came back and said, Oh, well done on five years. And I was like, Oh, I've got five years yet. Um, and yeah, which means that you've had your five years. I had my five years, and I've had my ten now.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

And you've had your ten years, and here we are still still doing it, still keeping it strong and real. But do you know what? It's just it gave me a bit of goosebumps when you were telling me earlier about that, because thinking back to when I was 28 days, you know, I knew that this time it was the time, but obviously I was still struggling, you know, I was still going to meetings daily, um, and I just was like you know, like still having those um urges to drink, but just being this time was different, you know what I mean? It made I made sure that I was just doing everything and anything because the other alternative was just not even thinkable, you know, and yeah, it's just nice to kind of have that little memory flash up from from then. So yeah, 28 days. I mean, I don't know what my day count is today, but it's probably like 1900 and something because I'm getting I'm getting close to 2000, so yeah, but uh yeah, that's that's brilliant, and at the moment my my day count is a sore subject because I went and missed my 10-year anniversary.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

I completely got the dates muddled, even though my um sober versus the same, uh it's the ninth, it's the same same date as my birthday. So I don't know why I got it in my head that it was the 15th week later. Um I think because I gave up in 2015 um edit there that I didn't give up anything. Um I think people can get a little bit prickly, isn't it? It's just yeah. I I stopped drinking and um and yeah, completely mucked up on on my dates and everyone had been saying, Oh, well done, congratulations. I was like, oh thanks, it's it's next week.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

And so what is what was your actual date of the ten years? When when was that? What's your sober date?

SPEAKER_02 4:37

So um the ninth of um the ninth of November.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

November, so just well, a week and a bit ago.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Was that last Saturday? Was that last Saturday or last Sunday?

SPEAKER_00 4:51

It was a week past uh let me just check here, November, the 9th of November, a week past no, two it'll be two weeks past on this Sunday coming. So yeah, it was the Sunday two weeks ago, nearly. And well, congratulations on ten years.

SPEAKER_04 5:05

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Yeah, absolutely fantastic. I mean, you know, that's the thing when uh you know I remember when I started and I was probably just absolutely in awe of your nearly five years and just thinking, oh my god, that's so unattainable. And but you know what, time just flies by, and if you're doing the work and you're sticking with it, it's like before you know it, five years have gone past and like ten years have gone past.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

But you know, when before you before you stop, one day is unattainable.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Oh god, absolutely, like an hour is unattainable.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah, yeah, or like getting to, you know, like getting to a week or something, and I think you know, this time of year always feels really thresholdy, and I always go back to sort of have that regression back to you know however many years it's been. Um and yeah, I find it quite hard actually. It's always a bit bumpy, and I'm hoping that now I've got like a solid wedge of of time, um, that it will start to feel um easier, you know, because sometimes sometimes it feels really still uncomfortable to sort of think about that that time previously. It's a real sliding doors moment where you know you make the choice to choose yourself, um, and at the time it's really hard because you are where you are, and you're stepping through a doorway and you don't know what's what's ahead of of you. Um, and from from my perspective, it had reached a point where I was kind of like, I don't know how I'm do gonna do this, I don't know what's ahead of me. I was really frightened, really scared. Um, what were people gonna think? Um how was I gonna approach it? And and actually it had reached a point where I thought that was my only choice. Yeah. You know, like it it the tipping the tipping point was was there that it the easier thing was to go go through that door, even though it was really, really scary. And I think you know, everyone who takes that first step is so brave. And once you've taken, yeah, once you've taken that first step, you just gotta keep on walking, you know, and and get through it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Well, let's go back. When did you like how was your how was your childhood, Emma, growing up and and when did you have your first drink?

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Oh, so I had my first drink really, really young. Um like you know, like preschool. Um yeah, I know. Um and this just sounds so bad for my parents, but like it was the 70s.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

Um and I think I mean are we talking like a sip or are we?

SPEAKER_02 8:01

And I always have like a little a little kind of glass, like a little kind of sherry glass of of of um of of watered down wine with my with my Sunday dinner. Wow. Um I remember as um like a primary school child, again, this is in the 70s. My parents had these really awful kind of um metal goblets, like really gothicky, and they'd put either cider or pomane in them, and we'd have those if we were having roast pork. Um yeah, so like alcohol was really interwoven into my childhood. My parents brewed their own wine and their own beer. So I would sit having my um cornflakes, wheatabics, whatever, first thing in the morning, surrounded by demijons or huge great big vats of alcohol fermenting away. I would help them with the bottling process. Um, yeah, so it was a different era, wasn't it, Emma?

SPEAKER_00 9:07

It was like I mean, I remember my dad did do a little bit of home brew in the cupboard when I was, you know, like I mean, it was before he left, so I was under six, you know, when when he was doing that. And there was just the smell of hops around the house and and things like that. And then I was talking to someone the other day and he was talking about how he used to get a little bit of whiskey dipped on, you know, his dummy dipped in in a bit of whiskey for teething. And I seem to remember my parents talking about that. I need to remember and ask them about it again because I think that's the thing that they did to kind of put you to sleep or or whatever, or take the pain away. I don't know. It's yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

I think so. Like my dad said um recently that he used to dip my dummy in gin um when I was teething. I was just a bit like I mean, you know, times times have changed massively. Um so yeah, every every Sunday when I'd come back from Sunday school, my mum would make me an eggnog, which was um milk, a raw egg, and a bit of sherry that she'd whack in the blender. So um I'd have I'd have that, especially in the winter. So yeah, alcohol was like a a really normal normal thing. And my parents just kind of had this attitude of like, don't make it this sort of cloak and dagger thing.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

And then, you know, mid-80s, everyone might, you know, when you're like sort of 14, 15, you're all going to the pub and you don't even need a pretend ID. It's just you sit around the corner and as long as you're not making any trouble and you're sitting off quietly with your little drink or whatever and with your drink and your crisps and you know, and that that that was that was you know, that was just us going rather than being with parents. Previously, you know, it'd be going to the the pub like it was like it was normal, it wasn't like a weird thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Yeah, yeah. Um and Emma, I just need to sorry, I just I need to just go and check something. Hold on, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah, no worries, no worries.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Oh worries, all good all good. Hope I haven't put you off there. Uh so yeah, we were just down uh at the pub and then you were saying about your parents, I think.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Uh yeah, so what's what's the thing? Um, da da da da da da. So like underage drinking in the pub and then Yeah, so I mean it was no big deal back then, wasn't it? So everyone everyone was was there. Um you're gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

How were your drinking habits in the pub? Were you like just having a few or were you in your life?

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Yeah, at that age Yeah, so at that age I was just having a few. I trying to think, I think I'd um I think I'd have like a shand a shandy with um with lime in it, and I'd probably play a bit of pool and have some crisps and everyone else would kind of be be be sort of similar. Um then what I think when I started to notice the difference was um when we all started having sort of house parties. So we never had them at my house because my parents didn't drink spirits, so we'd always go to other people's who had like you know the cabinet that they could then fill up with water, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Standard.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Yeah. And um I kind of had back then quite a take it or leave it attitude to it. And people who well, because it was kind of normal, it was you know, no big deal.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

It wasn't this forbidden fruit anymore, yeah, because you were allowed to do it in certain circumstances, so yeah, why would you go hell for leather?

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so um, whereas other people were kind of like I'm gonna have it all, you know, like kids in sweet chops, which which we are. Um, and so I've been thought okay, that's that's quite curious. Um, and then by the time I was in sixth form, I'd kind of graduated to meat spirits, um, which sounds more hardcore than than than it was. It was just simply that I was um at that point going to quite a lot of boat parties on the Thames. That was like the thing that my peers were doing. And the toilets were really minging, so it was like, well, I'll just drink neat gin rather than with the tonic, and plus it's a bit cheaper, and I can sneak it on.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Um that's that's actually really sensible because like if you're drinking pint after pint after pint, then you need to go to the loo like every 20 minutes or so, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

Yeah, yeah. So I'd say I was like quite a quite a savvy, savvy drinker. Um and so yeah, so on the face of it, it all seemed all seemed fine. Then I went off to to um to university and I went to Newcastle, which you know is kind of drinking mecca, isn't it? Like I I feel like I learned how to drink in in Newcastle and uh my my tolerance or my capacity increased, but I think it was just at a rate of everybody else. But the the interesting thing about it was I think more it was a response. It was a response to feeling homesick. I have this really clear um core memory of Friday night being being in my hall of residence, all set to do my my essay and have everything squared away, and feeling like you know, I was playing at being this like model student. Yeah, and and and looking out of the window, and where I was um in halls of residence, it was based on a Swedish open prison. Um, so from each of your cells, you could see all the others in your block. And as I looked out the window, I could see all the lights were off. It was sort of 7:30, and this really mean, mean, mean Emma voice said, You sad so-and-so, literally, everyone else is out having fun, having a great time, socializing, and you're in on your own, doing your essay, you know, and like I kind of like, oh, it's a sort of you know, respond to that kind of like nasty, mean, mean girl. I was like, Right, I'll show you. So kind of, you know, changed, changed trajectory slightly. Um, so yeah, when I was at university, Newcastle, pound a pint night, triples for a quid, you could go out, get absolutely um hammered, have kebab and chips, um, actually, yeah, pizza breads and chips and a taxi home all for a fiver. Um, you know, they they so you weren't breaking the bank. Yeah. Um, everyone else was doing the same thing. You're having a a j a jolly old time. So I guess when I was at uni, it was kind of mainly sort of binge, you know, binge drinking on student nights or at the weekend and stuff. But you know, I was on um quite a limited budget, so I was sort of really, really carefully budgeting. And I sort of thought these are gonna be the best days of my life. This is this is it, this is the type of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Before you settle down and get sensible, this is this is your meant to be cut loose. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, lap it up. Um, so I did, and then um I graduated and then I moved back to London.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

What did you what had you done at university, Emma?

SPEAKER_02 17:50

I did uh classical studies. So I was all about classical literature, Greek medicine, Greek um and Roman uh heroes and myths and architecture. I loved it. It was absolutely brilliant and brilliant, brilliant course. Um the the Greek and the Latin, not so keen on, and another, you know, more really, really cool memories of every every morning at nine, probably not every morning, um being very cold, hungover in a lecture theatre on ancient Greek. Um yeah, with like nursing a coffee, wearing one of those big puffer jackets, um, and and and necking um Pro Plus tablets. Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

I remember Pro Plus, yeah, yeah. Just caffeine pills. I mean, I know it's now it's now changed to like monster drinks and Red Bull and all that, but back then it was just pop of a couple of Pro Plus and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

Yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, happy, happy days. Um, so after that, graduated, moved to London, and initially really kind of struggled to get a job because hello, classical.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

I was gonna ask, I was gonna say, like, what do you go into doing? I mean, apart from being a classical studies lecturer, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Yeah, well no, you don't, yeah, because you're not you're not specialised enough. So um so initially I started working um in retail, I worked in Harrods, um, and then and then I uh got a job working in media sales, um, which is kind of you start off selling classified as in publishing, and it wasn't it wasn't my dream job, um, but I was suddenly working with loads of people my age, and it was really, really fun.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

And you know, the notion of oh, you won't be partying once you get a job suddenly completely completely changed because I have to say not in a sales job either, because sales job is very well, it's money oriented, so it's always like there's a very kind of you know, there's it's a very egocentric job as well, because I've done a lot of sales where you're everyone else is like kind of you know, there's this competition and there's a camaraderie, but there's a competition in sales, and it's I don't know if your place was ring the bell when you got a sale and all that, and it was just and what came with those sales jobs was very hedonistic, you know, let's show off how much money we've made this month and go out and buy everyone drinks and all of that kind of stuff that went with it. So it was it was work hard, play hard mentality when I worked in school.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Oh yeah, yeah, huge, hugely so it wasn't initially. So the company I worked for to begin with wasn't initially like that, which I think is probably quite quite good because it sort of eased eased me in gently. Um, but yeah, I did I did work in places which retrospectively like I cannot watch the office because it's just too close to the pub. Oh my god, all the way, I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yeah, horrendous. Um, but also you know, you get to work in really vibrant um um not just work environments but also really vibrant industries which are really, really good fun. Like you say, it's work hard, play hard. And you know, this this was the 90s, so really it was more like uh work hard having meetings down the pub. So a lot, you know, a lot, a lot of so here's the thing, like my my drinking in my 20s was way more than my drinking in my late 30s, 40s when I decided to call time on it. Because in my in my twenties, it was just all the time. Like literally, you'd go out, you go out with your work colleagues, or you might go out um for a work, a workdo, or for a client thing, you'd come in the next day, sort of. Pretty half cut, hungover, clutching a coffee, trying to force down a croissant, and by 11:30, you'd have already been through your roller decks of who can I take out for a lunch meeting. And couldn't find anyone for a lunch meeting, you'd say, How about a team meeting? And so team meetings down our local pub sort of would start off again. This is the 90s, so about the 90s I was drinking white wine spritzer if I was feeling kind of sophisticated. Um a pint of premiere. Oh my god, I loved a pint of premiere. Do you remember there was those the ads with Mel Sykes drinking it? It was a real kind of 90s.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

I remember Premier.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Was it Carlin Premier? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Yeah, yeah, I do, because it was around the same time as what's her name was doing the Boddington's advert.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

It wasn't Mel Sykes, it was the other one.

SPEAKER_04 22:58

And I can't remember, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

But it was around the same time, and there was the Carlin Premier. Yeah, exactly. No, I do remember those as well. And it was like, you know, I mean, I know we still get boozy adverts on TV, but not quite as many. Well, I don't really watch TV. Um, but yeah, it's it I don't I think there is still the adverts, but back then it was just like this is what you do. It was like lad, lad, lad, ladets, ladettes, you know, drink a pint if you're a bird, and uh you know, like yeah, well it was glamorous, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 23:27

And it was being empowered, and it was um it was like you were kind of showing that you could keep up with the guys, um which is massively dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Like I've said this before, and I don't want to appear as being sexist, which I'm not, but women are generally like smaller build than guys, and so you know, they shouldn't be drinking as much. Well, no one should be drinking anyway, but you know, that by the by you shouldn't be keeping up with the guys pint for pint, you know. Okay, you can, but it's still it's a lot worse for you by doing.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Well, this is the time this is you know, this is a decade of size zero, so we were all a lot lot slimmer. We kind of drank our calories rather than ate them, yeah, yeah, you know. Um, so yeah, so it'd be it was kind of like you'd be drinking pints because it was, yeah, I can keep up with you guys, and you know, there were women in ads who were who were doing this, who were gorgeous, who made it glamorous, and we didn't have the internet back then, so you know, literally your kind of um where you got your information from, what was cool, what was stylish was either in magazines or billboards, and you know, those gals were everywhere, or um yeah, or TV because you had you had Chris Evans on TFI Friday, which I think Big Breakfast.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Big Breakfast, you had the girly show, you had the word. But I think someone was telling me that on and I I vaguely remember this, but on TFI, he got Posh Spice Victoria Beckham to come in just after she gave birth to Brooklyn, like maybe a week later, and they way too well.

SPEAKER_04 25:06

I know it's way tough.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

I mean, it's just like but it that was that was what was going on in the 90s because no one was saying red flags, this is wrong, what you're doing, because everyone was just kind of doing it. Do you know what I mean? And I know that's not an excuse, but it was kind of like well, you know, on the big breakfast, if they're having uh they probably didn't drink in the mornings, but there was always things going on where it's probably, yeah. And it was like, but but I think the TFI Friday was on at six o'clock, so I was sitting having my tea, probably waiting to go out with my mates, and they're all in a bar doing their thing, and it was just like, you know, and Sarah Cox, Zoe Ball, I think Zoe Ball's in recovery, I think Chris Evans is in recovery. A lot of those old um you know rock stars and whatnot, they're most of them are in recovery. And I don't know if you saw the news yesterday, but the Stone Roses, massive fan of the Stone Roses. Uh Gary Mountfield, they call him Manny, he was the bass player. He died yesterday at 63. Oh, 63. So and I don't know that it hasn't been released yet, but I I think they'll probably find something that it was, you know, maybe maybe drug or alcohol related. I don't know if he was sober or or whatever, but he was due to come over to the Isle of Man. Like I w I don't know if I was gonna go and see him, but it was talking about his old you know, heydays and all that. He was doing like a tour of chats, and I'd s I'd seen it come up on Facebook or something last week, and then you know, I got the we got the news yesterday that it passed.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

So I mean, even even if it's not directly related or it's you know not not even in the thing, like at some point lifestyle choices are gonna, you know, they are gonna yeah, they are gonna catch up and impact, aren't they? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

I mean he did look a lot older than his 63 years, you know, he looked like he'd lived a life. And it as you say, he may have been sober or calmed it down for the past five, ten years, but you know, what had he done too?

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Well there's still a huge there's still a huge bet deficit in your bank account, isn't there? Yeah. I mean, like, you know, back in the nineties, um vodka Red Bull, that was a massive, that was a massive thing as well. And so easy to drink unhealthy.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

It's so so unhealthy, so une so easy to drink. I remember the tunnel in Glasgow, which I would be going there from like mid to late nineties, like underage, and I think they were doing vodka Red Bulls for like a pound a shot or whatever. Not a shot, but you know, like a like a drink in a mix. And it obviously wasn't like the the vodka was probably watered down or whatever, but we were just drinking them like they were water, you know, and it was like but it but the Red Bull was like making our hearts kind of you know Oh god, we feel it like literally about it. But then we'd be then we'd be throwing other things into the mix as well, which wasn't ideal, but yeah, it was it was a crazy time, you know. And I don't don't get me wrong, I'm I don't have any regrets. I don't, you know, kind of think, well, you know, if I would l to live my life again, I wouldn't do all that. I would do it all again, you know, but I wished that I'd maybe got to where I am now sooner, you know, because I did have a lot of emotional upset with friends, family, and that towards the end, and that's what I wish I kind of hadn't done, you know.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Well, I think like you know, back at that time, like I had a lot had a lot of fun. It was um, you know, my weekends were kind of for recovering, really, from from from from from the week. Um and at that point I was drinking most days, um, but not in a kind of thinking that there was any any issue with it. I don't think we had a lot of education around alcohol consumption or alcohol harm. I have a feeling that the guidelines were higher back then as well. And I think we just sort of would we'd never really count them up, but we just kind of have a bit of a giggle that we'd maybe maybe had a few people's um, you know, people's quota that week or whatever. And and it's interesting because that was the time where cigarettes were really um were really getting a kick in. And I was trying desperately to quit smoking. And I'd keep trying, and I'd get maybe a couple of days, get to the weekend, fail again, because this is all pre-ban. And um, and it you know, I had so many goes at trying to quit smoking because you know it's not good for you, it cost me a load of money. There are now starting to be health warnings on on every packet. It was very, very visible what you know what the consequences were, but I was I was addicted to nicotine.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Um you were drinking as well, and they go hand in hand. Yeah, of course they do, and you could probably quit for like a day, and then as soon as you've got a glass of wine or a pint in your hand, it was like and then someone would go and you see because you can smoke in pubs as well. So it was like it was like you see someone sparking up, and it's like, oh go and give us one of them. And then before you know it, you're getting 16 Lamberts out of the machine because they don't obviously put 20 in the machine, I don't know, for whatever reason. It was like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Yeah, they was yeah, but also I think now they're like nearing 20 quid, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Oh yeah, yeah. I mean I gave up, I gave up many minutes ago, but yeah, I think it's the best part 20 quid for for 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 30:24

If you can afford smoke, I'll like it.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

It was£2.50 for£20 when I started.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

I remember I remember yeah, I remember saying to myself, when they get to five pounds, I'm gonna uh for a packet of twenty, I'm gonna quit. I didn't. But and you know, I'd read I'd read the um the Alan Carr smoking book and I'd done all this stuff, it just didn't it didn't work. And actually the reason the reason for mentioning it is because all of those failed attempts really fed into when I came to stop drinking. Yeah, yeah. Because when that point came I knew I only had one shot in my bow. Like I'd been through that with smoking, and I knew how once once I'd kind of sparked up, it was then a few more packets, and then it was like, oh, what's the point of trying again? And then you'd like get all your enthusiasm and courage and determination and strength to give it another go. And over time you just feel so ground down by it that you know you've failed yet again. Um that when it came you know years later to to quitting um alcohol, I was just like, I've got one chance at this. I've got one chance because it's gonna take so much to haul this train on the tracks because I felt like the train had derailed ages ago. So it's gonna take so so much to to get me onto this this you know, this direction. I don't know if I've got the strength to do it twice or more. Like I'll just I can just give it everything on one go. So yeah, so back in the 90s, um, I was literally living my best life. I remember being in LA and they just brought in the smoking ban, and I got told very politely by um someone in in the bar, you're you're not allowed to smoke. So I was like, Oh, you've got to be outside, so it's very belligerent. I'll be like, Oh, I'll have my cigarette out the window and I'll have my beer in the club, there okay, going from side to side, so I can still have both. It was like, Yeah, uh that's not quite how we're doing it.

SPEAKER_00 32:32

So, what was the rule? Could you could you you'd have to go outside, but was there like a beer garden? Because obviously in the UK when the ban came in, beer gardens just like blew up out of nowhere. I'm sure there was there was beer gardens before, but suddenly it was where everyone was, and then you had canopies and heaters and yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Well, it's in in LA it was slightly warmer, but um, yeah, it was kind of like nice little bougie roped off areas.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

And actually it was kind of quite nice because it was just like having a fag break at work, right? Everyone's like, oh, we all go in, yeah, one person's stay and look after the drinks, and off we'd all go, and we'll get around in on the way back. So we just kind of you know incorporated it. Um so after after I'd sort of um so yeah, that was kind of like my sort of work life, and then I then I met met my partner, he's now my husband, together 20 years, and I mentioned that because half of my time of our relationship has now been as a as a non-drinking partner and him as well.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Any time now you will be with him longer sober than you were drinking. So that's you know, you're on yeah, that time is done. That was 10 years, now you're 10 years plus with him as sober Emma. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Yeah, I think he's I think he's you know he's he's he's got the memo, it's not it's not changing. Um but when so I met him and um he at that point was in the forces, so alcohol was you know it's like part of the job, isn't it? And and it was like, oh, you know, it's really cheap on the base as well. So yeah, you know, like just gone from having been like, oh, always out putting stuff on expenses and social and you know, work events, client events, to oh, now we can just go to the the base bar, brilliant. Um and then um then I had um had my children and I do have a little theory that you know when you're when you're pregnant and you're not drinking, you've got this glow that maybe it's not just a pregnancy glow, maybe it's a not drinking alcohol glow, but I don't have any scientific evidence to to back that up.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

It's just just like kind of like no, I mean I think you're on it. Like every every single lady that's been on the podcast that's had children has been sober for their pregnancy, and it's madness because what you can and some like obviously really bad have managed to you know you know go through withdrawal and whatever, stop for those nine months and then go straight back to it, and it's like but you know that this thing that you're putting into your body will harm your baby, so you stop for that, but then you're can you just go straight back to harming yourself, and it's like where does that where do we draw the line? Why is it why did them why does the medical world say you really shouldn't drink when you're pregnant because that'll harm your baby? How is it gonna harm your baby more than harming you? Do you know what I mean? It's almost like we say it's gonna harm your baby, but you're fine. Of course it's harming you.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

I mean, so here's the thing I had my second child at home at a home birth, and um in the fridge I had a bottle of champagne and a prawn sandwich ready for when I'd had my baby so that I could have prawn sandwich, because you're not allowed to eat prawns.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Oh, right, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh and um a bottle of fizz. And you know, like I had had my baby at home, natural, natural childbirth, yeah, had midwives there, had my baby, and and like about an hour later, I was like, and you know, it was first thing in the morning. So can I have a glass of champagne now? They're like, absolutely, of course you can. So there you go, there's a great big tick. It's okay. So, you know, like I think when um and we've all we've all done it at some point in the dark of night when no one's around. Am I an alcoholic? Pop down to Google. And you know, the things that it comes up with, do you drink in the morning? And I would go, no, I never drank in the morning, but actually, yes, I did. Like, if I was at a wedding, I'd think nothing of having a glass of champagne first thing in the morning, or before, oh yeah, I'll have a bloody Mary, great, no. Um, or oh, we're going on holiday, have a pint, whatever time it is at the airport, and then one on the flight. Like, I'm a really nervous flyer. Now the thought of having something intoxicating is just like, why would you do that? Because if something went wrong, you sort of want to be alert, right? Not not sort of brain, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

But why do we why do you like you know? I mean, I was a definitely a morning drinker towards the end. I would wake up and the first thing I'd do was, have I got any vodka left or whatever's in the house and I'm drinking that? You know, I was terrible at the end. But like people look down upon someone that's drinking in the morning, and it of course because it's a bad thing, but why is it okay to be drinking in the airport at 6 7 a.m. in the morning because you're going on holiday or whatever? It's like not everyone's going on holiday.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

And well well look, it's like you could have you could have two groups of people, couldn't you? You could have two groups of people drinking and one of those groups and let's let's say it's both at midday, and one of those groups can be very nicely dressed and they can be in a wine bar or having having you know drinks with their meal, and then the other group of people who are also socialising could be homeless and they could be in the park and they could be drinking tinnies. There is no difference between those two groups of people. But you know, if you're in the group who's in in the wine bar or in the restaurant, you will see yourself very, very differently.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

Yeah, of course you will. Very, very different. Because your wine's more expensive, yeah, no different at all. It's no different at all.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

You know, yeah, but you know, those two groups of people, what what are they searching out? They're searching out connection, they're searching out a sense of um belonging, belonging, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

No one judging them because they're all doing it together, so rather than being sat on their own. And it's that whole thing, like wine, you know, we we call you know, one of the words for people sat in a park bench with a bottle in a brown paper bag is a wino. Because wine is a ridiculously strong alcohol to be drinking, you know, compared to like like I think is it Mickey Flanagan or the comedian, and he's talking about going because I think he's sober now, and he's talking about going to like a like a house party, and he'll turn up, the guys will turn up with like you know, a six-pack of beer, but women will turn up with a bottle of wine for themselves, because you're not sharing that, you're drinking that to yourself, but like compared to like the four beers, he's like, I might as well turn up with you know freaking six pack of of tenant super, which is like eight, nine percent, because that's still not gonna get me as drunk as the bottle of wine. But wine is this sophistication and blah blah blah. It's not, it's a quick and easy way of getting mulred, really.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Yeah, and you know what? So um I bought myself a bottle of um non-alcoholic um mulled wine a couple of weeks ago. When it's but it was like bonfire night. And I've got these little kind of glass mugs, and they look quite they look quite small. I think they're from Ikea or something. So I had I had two glasses of it, you know, heated it up and it's like that's nice. And then I went to look at the bottle and I was like, oh my god, there's only about you know six to eight inches left in the bottle of that bottle. So in those two glasses, I've literally had over half a bottle of wine. Now, luckily for me, it's it's non-alcoholic mild wine, but that's with 10 years of not drinking, I'm still shocked at how the you know how much volume was in those those two glasses. And I think you know, there've been studies as well from the documentaries where um is it Adrian Charles maybe, and he's gone and spoken to people about you know what size what size glass that they use. And of course, when you're at home, there's a lot of free pouring going on, and people have become really distanced from um and disconnected from the amount that they're consuming and how that stacks up with units.

SPEAKER_00 41:11

And I know that the amount of units that's now within the safe guideline has has reduced um to what to what it used to be back in the 90s, but I think people still think that like one glass is one unit, and that's that's not the case because there's so many variables with within the I don't I'm not sure what a unit is, and I should know this, but I think a large glass of wine, and I I don't know what they serve in pubs now that might have changed, but I think a large glass of wine when I was drinking five years ago, well you could get like a small glass, which was 125mm, large glasses 250 mil. Most people go for the large glass. A bottle, standard bottle of wine is a 75 Cl. So that's three large glasses. So if you're going out with three of your two of your mates and you're all having a large glass each, you might as well buy the bottle because it's cheaper. But they don't do that, and they just buy glasses, yeah. So you're maybe having like four, maybe three or four glasses on a night or on an afternoon out, and that's like a bottle and a bottle and a quarter. Easy, you've had yourself.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Easy. I mean, you know, like I would do so. Again, all bar one came came in at a time when I was living in London. Um, me and my friends would meet up, and it was, you know, Bridget, Bridget Jones era. We'd have those big glasses of Chardonnay, and you know, girl math, may as well just get a bottle. Oh, should we get another one? You know, easily between three of us, we'd have three bottles of wine. And you know, we'd kind of totter home individually on the tube, and however we're getting home, so unsafe, so you know, you just look back and yeah, completely. And you've put yourself in that situation as well. And you know, I think there was just not very much education uh at the time um that you could inform yourself with, and you were just in this bubble of it's it's all okay, everyone else is doing it, and that was you know that I never really benchmarked where I was at drinking because everyone else was doing the same. But I think you probably seek out similar people to you know, to you know, smokers always find other smokers, right? And it's like drinkers always find other drinkers because you're not judging each other, and you know, when I when I became a mum, I think that my um my hormones changed massively as a result of it. Also, um I had a few years of getting absolutely no sleep, um, which was just a killer, and um I had this sort of two year period where I didn't know what impact the amount of alcohol that I was. Going to drink was going to have on me. So it could be that I would go out and have three glasses, four glasses of wine and be kind of okay. Or I could have two glasses of wine and be a total car crash. And it became very, very unpredictable and a source of anxiety. How am I going to be? What impact is it going to have? And so just to like seal the deal, I'd probably have a little glass of wine before I went out. You know, and it would be. But really, really worth the value light bulb moment of maybe I just shouldn't be putting all this crap in.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Yeah, like you want to take it out, but actually if you're putting it in anyway, like let's just stop it going in to begin with. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

So simple. So simple. It took me a year. It took me a year from that, like, to actually activate that. And I kind of look back on that now. I say now, but you know, when I first stopped, I was like, hmm, using that uh that old sales, sales analogy, if you're gonna chop down a tree, not that I'm advocating chopping down trees, but if you're gonna chop down a tree and you've got eight hours to do it, spend seven sharpening the axe, right? Like get get your ducks in a row. So um I'd sort of spent a lot of time thinking about it, like, and and it wasn't kind of like all how will it look like? What will this vision of me be like? It wasn't anywhere as um as advanced as that. It was how am I gonna do it? And I didn't have a clue. And the real sticking point for me was what will I drink? What will I drink instead of Sauvignon Blanc? Like what? Because back then there was Caliber and there was Bex Blue, and both are absolutely bogging. Yeah, so what am I gonna drink? I don't want to just I you know, like for me, a can of Coke was a hangover drink.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

So why would I you don't want to be in a pub or a restaurant or a wine bar with a sprite or a orange and soda, you know, in the goal.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

Not really, or or with what you'd have as a hangover cure. Yeah, you know that's that's super triggery, like of course, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it was a real sticking point for me, and then in the end, I discovered quite a nice cordial. Um, and I was like, okay, I think, I think I could could manage on this. So that was kind of like okay, and I'd also bought um bought a book. Again, there weren't any books, there weren't any podcasts, there weren't people talking about not drinking. People who didn't drink were people who were alcoholics. People did not stop drinking back in 2015 for lifestyle choices because they were sober curious.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

I mean, I say I'm saying they didn't, as a broad brush, a tiny, tiny few might be, and they weren't out of them, and they weren't out there shouting about it, and also like you're saying, the people that were alcoholics that were that had a problem, the society was saying, Well, you're doing it wrong, you're not able to handle your booze, that's why you've become an alcoholic, you're not not nothing to do with the fact that it's a drug, and you know, there's all these different other aspects of why people be you know have a an alcohol misuse disorder, but it's like the society in those days was saying, Well, if you drink too much, you're an alcoholic. I mean, I I probably banded the word alcoholic around in those days. Jokingly, I didn't think I was an alcoholic or I had a problem with alcohol, I was just doing what everyone else was doing, you know. It wasn't until I started seriously thinking about giving up in about 2018-2019 that I was like, Oh, yeah. And by then there was like a lot more stuff, there's still not as much as there is now, even when I gave up in 2020, like we were talking about, there was a lot more Instagram accounts, but you there was nothing about in 2015, was there? Really at all.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

No, I mean I didn't know anyone who had stopped drinking or who was kind of like rocking it, or you know, it was literally people who were like in inapologetic recovery because like alcoholics were you know people who'd somehow failed. Yeah, um, they were somehow people who couldn't control um you know their their drinking, and it was it was it was shameful, and I didn't I didn't really feel like that. I just knew that alcohol wasn't serving me. Like if I took stop doing this thing, I was gonna feel better. Like that was at its fundamental core, and I felt sort of sad about that because it had been so interwoven in in all aspects of my life, and everybody was doing it, and it was completely normal. And so the thought of, well, you need to stop this felt abnormal, like somehow there was something wrong with me, but I really felt it in my core that I I needed to remove it, but how I was gonna remove it was that like that that was kind of you know, it's a bit like someone saying, Would you like to climb Everest? And you go, I'd love to climb Everest, and they go, Well, there it is, off you go, and you're like, Well, I've never, you know, I haven't got any boots, I haven't got any crampons, I haven't got a little, you know, and I've never done this before. Never done this before, and I don't really know which path to go on. Like, I guess the only real and no one else is there, like I've just got to do it on my own, okay. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

There's no there's no Sherpas or anything like that. But I bet I bet in those days the only real avenue available to you, I don't even know when smart started up, but the only real avenue that was probably available to you was A. And that was probably not an even an option for you at that point because you didn't see yourself as being that bad, or yeah, like I kinda look I so I've had ten years to ponder this, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:04

And I still haven't got the answer. Was I that that bad? I mean, yeah, at times, yeah, but we all we all were like everyone who still drinks can be that bad. Oh, I think there's a lot of people out there that are in denial, you know, this so yeah, so like I wasn't I wasn't exceptionally bad. Um sometimes it it wasn't working well, but a lot of the times it was fine, yeah, but also on paper, when you look at how much we were all drinking normally, that's in you know, if you want to look at sort of alcohol misuse and units and guidelines, then if by that token, everyone's an alcoholic, like unless you're really only having one glass of wine a week kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 53:49

No, you know.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

So I really I I haven't haven't got sort of like an an answer on that. Like I didn't feel like I wanted to go and sit in the archetypal church hall in a basement or whatever, and say I was something that I didn't feel that I was. Yeah, and I think it's as simple as that. Like I I get a lot of social anxiety going out with really close friends to go and you know have a nice time, let alone the thought of stepping into an unknown space to meet people I didn't know and say something that I didn't believe in. Um, so that that really that from a value perspective, that was gonna be a hard ask. But equally, back then I didn't even know what my values were, I didn't know what my identity was. I but it just had a sense of that's not me, and I don't resonate with that, so I'm just gonna have to do this on my own.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

You know, when I when I got sober five years ago, it was there was all these different like my my idea was that I was gonna be out and tell people I'm giving up alcohol because I had a problem with it. But whereas with with you well, what I was gonna say was like there was all these different excuses like that was finding on Instagram that if people say to you, Oh, why are you not drinking tonight? You could come out with all these excuses like, Oh, I've got to run tomorrow or I'm on antibiotics or I'm just driving tonight or I'm having a week off. Do you know there was all these different excuses that you could that they were out there for you to go, oh I could say that. Now I chose not to do any of those, but back even like 10 years ago, like you were probably wondering how am I going to explain to my friends and buddies, oh, I've stopped drinking? Are they gonna instantly go, What's the matter? Are you an alcoholic? Because you know, when you're not even thinking that you are yourself, but yeah, there's that there's that negative impact of of you stopping drinking back then. Like it's bad enough nowadays, but ten years ago, people would be like, Why are you stopping drinking? Like, what's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Yeah, what's wrong with you? Yeah, exactly. What's wrong with you with you? Um I am I am useless at white lies. Like, yeah, I just I just don't see the point of them either. It's too much to try and remember. So actually Yeah, so I so I wouldn't that wouldn't have been my my route. I kind of just went to ground and um and what I did was so I didn't I didn't come out for three months and it really felt like coming out as well. Um and I had a couple of evenings out in that time where I'd go to the cinema or I'd go to the theatre.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Um did you tell your husband?

SPEAKER_02 56:47

Yeah, well I did after about two weeks, in a kind of like, I can't believe you've not noticed. And he said, Oh, I just thought you just didn't want to, because although he's um you know, he he was in the military for for 25 years, um, big drinking culture, he'd also spent a thousand days in theatre where he wasn't drinking, so he's like kind of oh, someone's not drinking for well, okay, yeah, that's fine, you know.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Like it's not a big deal for people that don't have like Jen, my wife, she doesn't drink at all, really. I mean, she'll have the odd one here and there, but it's not it's take it or leave it, you know. If if she's going out to a night out, she was out at an awards ceremony last night and she was driving, and it was like I'm sure her friends were drinking around her, but it wasn't even a thing, oh, could you come and pick me up? Like I would have come and picked her up if she'd needed to, but it was just like she's yeah, she's not bothered, you know.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Yeah, oh he's definitely not in that camp. Right, okay. Just to be clear in case it's I won't want to do him, you know, do him a disservice. He's he's he's definitely he likes a drink, yeah. He likes a drink, yeah. And and and actually when when I came to sort of thinking about you know how I'm gonna stop, it was very much this needs although this is about me, it's not about everybody else. It's this is my personal decision and my personal choice, and I've got to be okay with what other people are doing. And yeah, that was that was hard. That first Christmas, where normally I would be getting stuck into the bottles of prosecco, and previously they'd been lying right down the side of the house.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

And again, that's another one, it's early doors, so you can have prosecco at like 10 o'clock on Christmas Day if you want to.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

Oh, yeah, yeah, 100%. Um, you know, that that was really tough, and it did just sort of feel like hard help cooking all the food and try to like embrace all the positives and see all the positives, but also like there wasn't anywhere where I could read that information. I was just having to work it out for myself. There wasn't like you know, all my top ten tips for getting through this, you know, the the silly season. It was literally, you know, go through. And to be fair, I didn't think that when I stopped that I was going to um I was gonna make it to Christmas. Like already when when I stopped, I was kind of giving myself get out of jail-free cards of oh, if you can just make it to like start of December. Yeah, you've given yourself a little bit of a bit of a detox before Christmas.

SPEAKER_00 59:30

You've proved that you've done it, you've proved yourself you can do it. Have Christmas, have a wet Christmas and then a dry January. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:36

Yeah. Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Again, I would never have done sober October or a dry jan. Absolutely, there was no way I could think about doing it, even for a controlled period of time.

SPEAKER_04 59:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

Not not a chance. And could because it was every day. There was like, you know, making making a drink with with um, you know, having a drink, making making something with dinner, and then oh, you know, so and so's home, or oh, you know it was always a reasonable. It's a ritual. It's a ritual, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

Yeah, yeah. So it was, you know, it was all time and it and it and it was social. So yeah, I could not have not have stopped. And and so I was kind of like, well, if I could just get, you know, get to like that beginning part of Christmas, then that would be good. So already, you know, I was saying to myself, just two weeks, because that that felt Herculean. Um, and I really surprised myself. I mean, I went out and I bought bought the bottles with 25% off from Tesco's. Thank you, Tesco's, and um and it got to the day, and I was like, Well, I just wonder if I can do another day. Can I do another day? And and then I got to New Year's Eve, and I hate New Year's Eve. Even when I was a boozer, I never went out on New Year's Eve because you'd have to queue, there were queues for the toilets, drinks cost more. I'd always go out the night before New Year's Eve when it was quiet, getting lots and lots of drinks in a normal thing, no cues for taxis, none of that kind of stuff, and then I'd spend New Year's Eve getting over my hangover, and then I'd like to go out on New Year's Day and have a lovely day, go for a nice stroll, some nice food somewhere, do something nice. So this was gonna be the first time that we were kind of going out on New Year's Eve and we're going to um going to a house party. Lots of friends were gonna be there, and I remember driving there, and I had my two two-litre bottles of sparkling water. I mean, how I thought I was gonna get through four litres of sparkling water because no one else is gonna be drinking anything.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

And you're not that thirsty when you don't drink, you know what? You like I'll literally have a pint of fizzy water and orange, and that'll do me all night because I'm not I'm not gagging for a you know a thirst one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

Well, I was I was so nervous. I remember going in and plonking them down on the counter and saying, I'm not drinking tonight, like really big visual statement, and everyone being quite sort of surprised and and shocked, and then being like, Oh, okay, whatever, you know, going on. And then later on, one of my friends, who actually I'm gonna meet for coffee tomorrow, saying to me when they were a little bit tipsy, so do you think this is forever? Probably had a few sobs. Oh, I don't know, probably thinking I hope not. And actually, I am just so so blum and grateful that yes, it it managed to be because I remember, I remember on New Year's Day looking in the mirror, and it was about three months at that point, and instead of my eyes being bloodshot as they normally would be after that sort of festive period, I had really um, you know, my whites were really like white and my pupils had a sparkle to them, yeah, and I just sort of saw this person looking back at me that I hadn't seen in a long, long time, and I got such such a kind of yes, a real sense of validation, like this this has been hard, but this is worth it, and actually this is great. And I think at the time on the radio it was Lola's tune, I'm a different person, turned my world around, which is such like a sober anthem. I just love it, and I was like, Oh, I think I think I can keep going, and um because my birthday's on the ninth, and I gave up on the ninth, I on that day thought, well, what would a sober birthday look like? And I kind of had a bit of a visualization, manifestation of what would be nice to do given that I now wasn't gonna be going out and and and drinking, and how would I like my birthday to look? Now, at that point, what I kind of visualised was completely unattainable, not on the cards, and just it it you know, the universe kind of conspired for that to happen, and I think that yeah, that's the magic of sobriety, isn't it? You you feel a lot of time that there aren't possibilities, or that your mindset's really closed when you're drinking, and you can't see where you know the directions forward are, and then when when you quit drinking, you have a real mindset shift, and things start to become possible, and you see that things are changing and things are evolving and that things are in a constant state of you know positive change. Whereas previously, when things were changing, it was normally because I had made a massive error, and you know, either of judgment or just totally got things wrong, or you know, kind of seen things right, you know, like you you you know, just not had that clarity, yeah. And um, yeah, and I think it was at that point I was like, oh, you know, I can keep going with this. But interestingly, it wasn't until I was four and a half years of not drinking when I actually thought this could be forever.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:52

This could be forever.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:53

Up and up until that time, it was just oh just just see how this goes.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:58

Yeah, because I had no I had no support network, I had no framework for kind of exploring options or hearing other people's inputs. It was it was very much a solo journey. There wasn't any noise, it was very, very quiet, and you really tap into your own reserves with that because and you find layers of resilience that you didn't quite realize that you had. You find that you're maybe more intuitive that you'd given yourself credit for, you start to get in touch with um different aspects that had just remained, you know, you're you're a gardener, so it was like finding the bulbs that hadn't hadn't ever come up.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Weeding them out and yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean it's it's so remarkable because you know, I guess you didn't really get to a major kind of rock bottom, you know. Know you you wanted to give up to kind of make yourself have a better life and and get rid of the kind of depression and how you're feeling and kind of detox yourself. But once you'd kind of done that, maybe over the first year or even six months, you know, no one would have blamed you to kind of go back for it, back to it, you know, and it's kind of like the the the strong mindedness that you had with no real support at all to just keep going and then and then eventually after four and a half years to go, yeah. Do you know what I'm gonna make this this this kind of 'cause see for me and and I hate to compare, but I you know I had to because if I hadn't I wouldn't I wouldn't be here now. It was it was it was that bad, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:46

Whereas and I know there's all different levels and and whatnot, but it's you just you just kind of did it yourself, you know, and it's so commendable and but but also I didn't want to go any further with those levels, you know, like you got to the level that you got to and decided I can't go any further, but actually I'm sure there's more levels that a different Jimmy in a different dimension has has has gone, and I just didn't want to go any further with it. Yeah, it was it was time. I'd I'd had I'd had my um my amount of units and several other people's for sure. Yeah, the lifetime supply in the yeah I'd I'd I'd I I'd had it and I I I didn't like what it was doing to me. And but but you're right, because oh you weren't that bad, there will there was like some pressure to to join in to come back or just have one or you know oh you've had a year off, you've had two years off, look, you've proved it to everyone, your body's repaired itself, blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:52

You can go back, but to have that peace of mind and that strong-mindedness to to go, no, do you know what I don't like what it was serving me anymore. Um I'm done with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:01

Yeah, well, I'll let you into a secret. So a couple of years in, probably about I don't know, maybe two and a half or three years in, I was on holiday, my mum was on holiday with us, and um a big part of like our history when we'd been on holiday was that we would drink, yeah, we would drink wine. Yeah, and um I was doing a bit of work in the evening, and she was like, Oh, you know, I've got I've got this, and it used to be like our favourite. She's like, Oh, do you want to have a you know? I was like, No, no, I'm good, honestly, but thank you. Like, I appreciated the gesture, and then she'd like have she'd obviously had like another couple of drinks. She's like, Oh, go on, really. She's like Mrs. Doyle in Father said, Oh, go on, oh you will you will have, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and you know, it was a really it was really low. She was going, it's a really low white wine, uh, and it was, I think it's like 3.5%. So at that time, yeah, and hope part-time, alright?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:54

Well, you're like, what's the point?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:55

You know, and at that time, at that time there was like this category called low, which was like 1.5 to 3.5%. That was kind of, you know, it was it was like a thing. And he's like, and then she brought one and she said, I've put some I've put some soda in it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:11

And I was like, She's really not giving up, is she?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:14

Yeah, she's like, and I was like, Oh, she really wants like a buddy, and so I was like, okay. So I caved. And I had I had half of this um very weak white wine spritzer with her. And I was like, I don't really like the taste, which I was like, oh that's good. It was like it was kind of like almost like I had like a little clipboard. I was like, I don't like the taste, that's good. By the way, I'm not recommending anyone does this at all. Um and then and then she was like, Would you like another? This was like a little bit later, and I was like, No, no, no, I'm I'm I'm good, thanks. Because by that point, the you know the ice had melted and stuff, but I felt different, even though it was like a minute amount of alcohol, I felt different. I felt like the start of like feeling a little bit merry, bit tipsy, yeah, and I was like, Yeah, but you never stuck at this level, like you never ever achieved that because by the time you felt like that, you'd have already had like three or four.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

And I was just like, no, no, and uh even though it was a minute amount, I was like, I actually like always feeling present, always feeling like conscious, um, connected, dialed into what's what's going on, or or tuned out because actually I don't want to be involved in what's going on. But but having having the ability on my terms, yeah, and and I was like, so it was really it was really interesting, and it was um it was one of those things where it could have it could have gone really, really wrong.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:01

But also, also the danger of that, because I was talking in one of our meetings the other day, the pyramidary meeting, we're saying I was I always joke, like, you know, if I had a baby sham, I'd probably be on the floor, you know, and it's weird because coming from drinking a bottle of vodka a day to then you know five years later, if I had a baby sham, I would be talking rubbish and I'd be drunk on it, you know, and it'd be funny. But then I would probably get the taste for it and think that I could drink what I used to drink and it'd kill me because I mean that's what killed Amy Winehouse, and it is that danger level of having so much time sobriety and then thinking, Oh, well, I'll be okay. And the truth is I didn't, I didn't know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:43

I didn't, and that you know, obviously, I'm not I'm not an AA person. I've been I've been to one online meeting during the pandemic that my friend hosted, which I found really interesting. Um, so I'm not not here to either go, yeah, it's great, or slate it or whatever, but like I'm never felt that I'm in that kind of that that sort of you'll never be cured, you'll never be this, you know. I've never had that that kind of information download, but inherently I feel I need to protect what I've worked really hard to achieve. Um and and it was it was really kind of empowering to have that experience of I don't want this anymore, and also like, wow, you know, who the hell are you?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

This is the next this next level unlocked, like well it's interesting because you know I think a lot of people, myself included, be like, oh, I wonder what it'd be like, you know, and it is just the thought. No, and I don't and that's that's the other thing. So I was in the fellowship, steeped heavily in it for the first year until I then kind of you know, there was there was aspects and I kind of moved on from it. But I know it's there, but yeah, I was, and I would say things like, you know, one day at a time and never say never, and I I will always be an alcoholic or an addict until I die, and all of that stuff. Now I don't I don't say that anymore because I don't believe it, because I know that if I have another if I if I I I I know for a fact I'm never gonna have another drink again because I'm done with it, it's gone, it's out of my life, I have no interest in it. I'm not sitting there going, oh, I wonder what it'd be like. You know, I'm not I'm done with that, but I also know that if I was to go out and have a drink tonight, it's pretty much 99% chance that I would be right back to where I was because I reckon that I would get the taste of it again and I'd go back. You know, I'm not I'm not 100% convinced, but I know that it's a chance not worth even taking, you know. Why would I why would I even go down that road, you know?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:48

I think as well, it's like you've you know, in sobriety you build you build a life that you don't want to numb out from. And you know, the last five years of of my life have been really, really hard. There've been some very, very tough times in the last three years. It is not it has not been easy. Um, so you know, I'm not someone who goes, oh yeah, you know, unicorns and rainbows and sobriety, magical fits, and yeah, never got them either. Um but like with sobriety you build resilience to challenges and to dealing with life on life's terms. And however tricky things get or become, um, I know that I've got the resources, the skills, the ability to sit with those problems, work through those problems, those issues, or just graft and get on with it until life shifts. And and to do that without a headache, without feeling sick, without emptying my bank account, without making an idiot of myself. Um, you know, and and and be able to juggle all the other things. Like I love the fact now that my my kids are teenagers, that I I can get in the car and I can go and be wherever they need to be at any point and and help it should that be the case, you know, rather than oh, I've had a drink. Like, and and you know, there is so much pride in in just knowing that you can do that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:33

I mean we've got we've got I've got three stepkids and two of them are teenagers, and you know, I've say to them all the time, you know, if there's anything that you need or you know, if you need me to come pick you up. But a few years ago, um my friend who did a bit of gardening for as well, he his his wife and him um they had to they were having they were having a few drinks in the house and so he'd been drinking, his wife, I don't think she was drinking, but she had this it turned out she needed uh an appendectomy, I think. She her like appendix basically worst for me and it was all happened and this was at about I think it was about midnight, one o'clock in the morning. Their niece, who was I think she was 17 and she had a provisional and she hadn't been drinking and she had to drive them up to the hospital and it was it was one of those things, and he told me this a couple of days later, and I was like, Man, you know that you can always call me because I won't be drinking, and he was like, Oh yeah, he goes, I never thought about that, and he goes, Oh, it was one o'clock in the morning, I was like, I'd probably be up anyway, so but just in the future, god forbid it ever happens again. But I said, you know, I'm one of those ones now that you know you can call because I won't have had a drink, but how but it's so yeah, it means the world to me that I can say that to people, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:51

Yeah, you can show up for yourself, you're you're not just showing up for yourself, you're showing up for other people, and you know, like towards the case.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:59

But also, why would I want to do something that would hinder me being able to go and just do what I mean? Like drive a car. Like if I need to go and help someone and do something that like I have the ability to drive a car because I passed my test and I have a car. Why would I want to then take something that makes me not be able to use that?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:19

And you can do it a hundred percent of the year at any age, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:23

Yeah, any time of day, any time of year, I can do it. And it's like, you know, but for so long I didn't even have a car because I was like, Well, I didn't need a car. I'm I live in a city and uh and I and I drink, so yeah, this is this is like poker.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:35

I didn't even pass my test because what was the point, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:38

Well, yeah, yeah, why would you need it? You don't you don't need it, so yeah. Emma, do you regret getting sober?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:44

Oh my gosh, no, like I could I've got so much gratitude for that one decision, and if I could write a list of all the reasons why I'm so happy about that choice and all the benefits, it would be a really, really long list, and there would also be a lot of things missing on it because it's just an endless end. Oh god, and and you know, it's each like month clocks up, there's always there's always another reason, like every single day. Like I I at the beginning I was such a bingo counter for the days, and I think you know that's because I didn't have a lot of other resources or support, so it's like you know, counting on my fingers and stuff. That was like a big big thing, yeah. Um but so ten years on, I don't really kind of check in as much, but um every day I think God, I wouldn't have been able to do that if I was drinking, or or I wouldn't have got so much pleasure from that if I still had alcohol in my life. So there's not a day that goes past where I don't feel huge gratitude for for that that choice. Um, I think my only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. But hey ho, I did it when I did it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:08

You did it when you did it, and you know, there's no harm in people doing it at 50, 60, 70, 80, you know, anytime's a good time to do it. But like you, like me, I just I'm so glad I did it now. Because as we know, five years goes past, ten years goes past, and if we were still out there, like you're saying, you know, I said I probably wouldn't be here, but I could be, I probably would still be here, but I'd be a very different state of a person and human being. I'd be, you know, uh probably literally on my last legs. But even even if I wasn't and I still had a job and a roof above my head, I would probably be uh like barely any friends. My family would have probably given up on me a long time ago, but there's still a chance that I could get sober, of course there is. But then to start again and be day one, of course that'd be great. But I'm just so glad I did it when I did it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:55

Yeah, and uh I mean same here, like I feel the relationships that I've got, um you know, like your relationships change, but the relationships that I've got now um feel really strong.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:08

Um, you know, even even the relationship with with my husband, like you can think, well, if over the last ten years we'd both been drinking, how would you know think things there have been some life events which have been difficult, how would we have navigated those if I'd had alcohol in the mix? Yeah, I I would have reacted very differently, and you know, things could have escalated, would we still be together? I don't know. Um yeah, it's it's such a sliding doors moment. Um I got on the tube, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:41

You got on the tube, and I'm just so grateful because you know, I met Jen over two years ago now, and we got married in the summer, and she's got three amazing kids that are now my stepkids, and they've never ever had to see me when I was a drinker, you know, and I'm just so grateful for that that they'll never have to see me, you know, just maybe come in and be a bit belligerent or you know, forget what I've said, or passed out on the couch when they've come home. Or do you know what I mean? I mean, I was never like a horrible, horrible drunk, but I was drunk nonetheless, and you know, my ex and her kids had to deal with that a lot and on a daily basis. So I'm just so grateful that these these guys don't have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:23

And it's yeah, it makes it makes it makes a massive difference. And I think you know, your self-worth, your your sense of self, your esteem, your dignity, it just it and it and it all it makes you feel better about yourself as a person.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:39

Um I think that resonates out of us, and people people see it and they kind of you know, I've got I've got friends here who, you know, when they hear me talking about, you know, alcohol and and all that, it it kind of gives them that little boost and think, oh, you know, maybe I should because I want what he's got, you know, and I and I'm maybe thinking of you know knocking it on the head as well. They haven't yet, but you know, maybe you know, maybe they will do at one point. But you know, people's people's people's habits have definitely changed, you know. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:10

I mean I think you know I think when when you don't drink, you are you're planting seeds.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:21

And it kind of depends how long those seeds take to um to grow in other people's uh other people's lives. Like on my wedding day, um, I didn't I didn't drink because I was pregnant. And um one of my one of my friends from uni was there and they weren't drinking, and I was really surprised. I was like, how come you're not drinking? And I said, Oh, um, I'm just having a bit of a break with with alcohol at the moment. I said, you know, just felt like we all we all started drinking at 18. I was like, 18? Like a bit slow. Sorry, I was like, I really eighty, and uh they sort of just felt like I wanted to um, you know, it was just something that I just we we all just started doing without really questioning it. I just want to re-question my my decision. And I was like, we say well, yeah, now we say nice at the time. I was like, how weird, like you live in France, like shouldn't red wine be coming out of the taps? I really couldn't get my head around it. Um but that that little seed landed, and I don't know, how so 2007, and about seven seven years later, it's that little conversation started to replay again. And I was and you know, like if someone else can do it and just take a step out and reassess their their their decision-making process the point they are now rather than as a teen, why you know, why why can't I? And I think that you know people see that we're happy with our choice. Like I never want to be the sort of person who is a miserable non-drinker, because that's that's that's it was the alcohol that was making me miserable, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:19

I mean, that's I think those are kind of we call them dry drunks, and it's like you haven't worked on whatever it was that was kind of making you drink in the first place. So even though you've knocked the drink out, you're still dealing with those issues, and you're just angry at the world because you can no longer drink, and it's like you need to work out what's going on with that. But like what we were saying at the beginning, when you got sober in 2015, there wasn't the same Instagram or podcast, or whether there wasn't any of it going on. So I think that we're having this kind of crossover now five years on from when I got sober. That people that are not like even have a problem with alcohol, or they're you know, not even maybe a gray area drinker, but they're getting sober curious and they're they're they're typing in hashtag sober or hashtag sober life or whatever it hashtag whatever and they're searching it and they're going, ah, so it's not just people that are like, Oh my god, I need to stop drinking, right? What am I gonna find on the internet? No, it's people that are like, I want to get fitter, I want to get healthier, I want to be more mindful, what can I do? So then they're coming across accounts like yourselves, mine, other people's, and there is now that crossover, so it's not just people that are you know at at the worst of the worst, or or you know, a green we are drinker. They're people that are opening up.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:35

Yeah, I think it's seen as a more expansive option rather than um like last chance saloon.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:42

And I think I think a lot more young people are definitely not even starting drinking, do you know what I mean? I think they're just kind of they might have a little bit here and a little bit there, but I think there's definitely a lot more they're not going out and getting completely smashed as is you know, like you and I did back in the day.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:00

Oh I'm kind of having a slightly different experience with my teenagers. Uh I've got one who's nearly 18. And uh yeah, I'm kind of like, oh my goodness, but equally thinking, well you were you were just like that, Emma. You were just like that. But yeah, so I think alcohol is still, unfortunately, it's still there. It seems to be the one thing in school that isn't really talked about. They get a lot of education um on drugs about about drugs, but but not on alcohol. It's still, you know, it's still there in the Christmas raffles.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:41

It's why is it drugs and alcohol?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:43

It's alcohol's a drug, so it should be the same. Yeah, motivate motivate that I work for over here, the addiction charity. They they are going into the schools and teaching people the dangers of drugs and alcohol, which is great. I mean, uh we've our oldest is 15 and then there's 13 and the younger one's nine, but the two older ones, they're getting to that age where I'm sure some of their friends have are started doing it, and this, that, and the other. So I know that it's it's kind of coming round the bend, and you know, we're gonna have to deal with, you know, maybe a drunken knight here or there. But it's how it's how they whether they go for it hell for leather, or it's like, well, I was just having an experience and I don't really like it, or I don't know. We're gonna we're just gonna have to navigate that as we as it comes.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:27

But you know, I feel I feel people need to explore explore things in the way that they're kind of heading. Not necessarily heading, that sounds all right, let's reword that. I feel I haven't played a part in it. In the sense I've not been modelling it.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:49

Of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:51

So although it wouldn't necessarily be my choice, um, you know, it's readily available, it's it's there. It's kind of yeah, I get I get it, sort of a rite of passage as well. Um but I again I do feel glad that I haven't played any part in that. And yeah, you know, and and also that I can I can say that I don't approve without being by um by the kitchen hob with a glass of wine in my hand, being hypocritical about it, you know, or you're too young to drink, or you know, like too young to drink now.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:28

Go and fill up my gin and tonic, you know. Yeah, but but but the thing is, even though you you haven't had a play, had a part in in the modelling of it, society has, you know, we've still got a long way to go before you know TV's stopping showing it, advertising stopping doing it. Like putting warnings on the bottles, that needs to start happening because like what we're saying earlier with the smoking when that started ramping up in the early to mid 90s, when it was like warnings, the price would the well, that was it. The government were saying, and they're still saying it now, we're putting the price up to stop people smoking. It's like, well, you're making more and more money off of it, but you're not so fast as to is to kind of put on a complete ban or so so here's an observation.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:13

When um when I first quit, actually, no, not when I first quit, when the sober apps first came in, um, the one that I've got is I am sober, I think. And it's got a thing where you put in how much you were spending, like time and also money. And I think I put in a tenner because I was like, well, we probably get through definitely a bottle a day, sort of if you average it out. Um, but then also I don't know, pack it a parasitamol or a burger or junk food or you know, back a monster munch, whatever. I thought that's like an associated cost. So I put in a tenner because it was a nice round figure as well. And I had this sort of moment of clarity a couple of weeks ago when I was looking at prices in the booze aisle. Bottles of wine haven't changed significantly in price in a decade. And you know, in in context, we've had a c cost of living crisis where a bag of pasta has pretty much doubled in price, and yet alcohol is still the same price. And I noticed in Tesco's the other day that Bailey's is um is it 11 quid for anitre? It's one like a special, so it's literally the minimum pricing point. And you know, people are indirectly being encouraged to to consume alcohol because it's still affordable. When you think about the price increases for for everything else that that have been on basics, alcohol doesn't seem to have been sort of included in that.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:57

It's it's still because they still want people to do it, they don't want people to go, whoa, whoa, hang on, you know, this is getting ridiculous now, the price of it. But I mean, is it not still has it not gone up out in pubs? I I wouldn't know, but you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:13

I mean I think pubs is a different practice, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:18

And I read this the other day that big alcohol is not you know, they're they're not concerned on your kind of weekend drinkers or this, that, and the other. They're not their their main shareholders or kind of input into their massive gains and profits is people that are problem problem area drinkers, you know. They that is what they rely on. So they're not trying to, you know, put the price up so that you know your winos or whatever can't afford their frosty jacks or whatever. Do you know what I mean? They're still buying the wine and and even then the the the you know whoever the the um well-off businessman that has his whiskey bottle every night and has a few a few glasses or or the entire bottle, it's that's who they're relying on, you know, and it's why would they want to put the price up for that? Because it is going to kind of alienate the market. Obviously, with smoking, it had to go up because the government stepped in. Why is the government not stepping in with the alcohol, you know? Because they're making far too much money. They will they will their hands will get forced at some point, like j uh Canada, I think Germany and Ireland have all started putting like you know, carcinogen warnings on the bottles and things like that, and it is working, but they just you know, Britain and England in particular always seems to be last to the kind of uh table. I remember when the smoking ban came in, it happened in Ireland first, then it was Scotland and then England, and I was like, England's gonna be late, you know, and it could because I could then still smoke and drink in the pubs, I wasn't bothered, but it eventually did come in.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:56

It takes time, takes time, but hopefully, hopefully that wave is catching. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:03

I'm not gonna say that I want people to I I'd love it if people start start waking up and realising just how bad alcohol is for you, but that's not gonna happen overnight. But what I want the government to do is warn people, you know, pay give people the full faculty of knowledge that this is harmful for you, not even just at a little level, because they'll be like, Oh, I don't drink that much, you know, I'm not drinking every day, doesn't matter. I think the safe amount of alcohol that you can drink. Professor David Nutt did the did a thing on this, and he said, if it was to be done by the health and safety for food, you know, food standards and all that, it wouldn't be allowed in food because of its carcinogenic properties and its poison and you know, whatever. The safe amount of alcohol that you're allowed to have is one large glass of wine per year, that's the safe amount. And I don't think that's like all at once, that's like over the year, so minuscule amount of yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:01

Yeah. Oh, I'm just so glad to be free of it. I really am. Without a doubt.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:07

Without a doubt. And what advice would you give to people that were kind of sober curious or just in the kind of early stages of giving up?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:14

Um I guess, yeah, to get to get it.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:21

Because it was different for you back then, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:23

Yeah, I think give yourself a chance. Also, like explore um a lot of the non-alcoholic options that there are. Um and maybe see how you feel. Um get you know, get get friends to get on board. Um it's it's it's really it's really difficult question that because I think I think it has changed a lot since I since I quit. Um I mean definitely there's a lot more support out there, but I think it's about getting really serious with with with what what you want your life to look like. Um because when you when you're drinking, you don't really think much further than like beyond the next weekend, or you know, everything sort of revolves around it. Maybe maybe to just kind of like consider what things you've got in your life that don't involve alcohol. When you do an inventory like that, that can be quite um quite stark, can't it? Because you're like, yeah, yeah. And to start and to then start um cultivating those alcohol-free areas so that they become richer, they become more expansive, and they become more of a kind of foundational pillar in your life, so that you are then increasingly less reliant on on alcohol or the circle of friends who are attached to that. Because I think when you come to quit, if everything has been alcohol-centric, it's really hard to move away with that, um, and and still, you know, have good conversations with people or connections or or do do normal things without feeling feeling kind of weird. So, yeah, get get like um kind of create support for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:18

And then and then just keep trying, just keep trying, don't ever give up.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:22

Yeah, because it's not, you know, I mean, you did it the first time really once you'd made that choice and decided to do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:28

I did it, I yeah, but I I mean it was hard, I'm not saying it was easy, and I think the reason I did it was because I knew I couldn't give it another go. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't usually you know, because uh back then there wasn't there wasn't the support.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:41

You thought if I if I break that's me back out here forever, and I get that, and that's the thing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:47

But I think But also that's that's that's the result of a very closed mindset as well of things will always stay the same. Yeah, and actually things don't, things move on. So if you keep doing the same thing, you're always gonna get the same output, yeah. You know, so actually have a think. What if I do things differently, new things will come into my life. It's not about giving up, shutting down, it's about allowing new channels to be diverted. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:20

Yeah, and I like what you're saying about the um you know, finding new avenues that don't involve drink or or what avenues you have that don't involve drink to explore them because you know if someone had said to me back in the day, I'm sure they probably did, like, what what what do you do? What what are your kind of hobbies and stuff? And I'd be like, being social, you know, because that's that's literally what and then eventually it didn't become social, it became like solo. But but yeah, but like that was this was my hobby, like going out and drinking was my CV, my C V said pubbing and clubbing. I think I was a bit more kind of coy about it and said socializing, you know, but I had other stuff on there like playing tennis. I don't think I've really played much tennis in my life, but but yeah, definitely drinking and doing that. That was my that was my hobby, that was what I did, and that was where I met people. And you know, like we said earlier, like if there was people that were not big drinkers or whatever, I wouldn't gravitate towards them, so I didn't really know that many non-drinkers when I stopped. Um luckily I was over here and I was making a fresh start, and the only people I then kind of knew, apart from my family, was people that I would meet at the meetings that were all sober, um, which is you know why I'm gonna out with with Joe tonight to have a you know sober sober pizza. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:36

I mean it's so great that there's lots of opportunities for for meetups. Um I had my first meet a sober person when I was three and a half years sober, and um and yeah, and she's like you know, my my best sober buddy, we're still great, great friends, and you know, I'm so grateful for that connection because that then enabled me to go out and meet other people. So I was like, Oh, if people don't drink, they'll all be like these weirdos.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:04

Oh yeah, weirdos like you ever because it is deep and meaningful connection that you have, it's not these like drunken behind you know, in front of the bar things on a Friday and Saturday night where you're all just kind of talking absolute rubbish to each other and not really listening to each other anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:23

And and also like there's a danger when when you're boozing, I say danger, when you're boozing, you often frequently overshare, and then there's like oh god, why did I say that? And I think that when you have connections with people who who don't drink, you go quite deep quite quickly, you get to the nitty-gritty stuff, but it's done in um in a very uh conscious way, you're aware of it. There's no like, oh god, why did I say that later? You're you know, you're fully in control, yeah, fully pleasant, and and you know, you're you're asking the questions and you're you're communicating, you're interested um in exploring those things rather than it being like, oh cringe, why did I ask that? That was like really, you know, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:09

And I think I think go back to way at the beginning when we're saying about how you know I don't I'm not a big fan of large crowds of people and you know going out to you know bars and restaurants and that anymore. Now I don't think that's because being a non-drinker I'm boring. I think I think a lot of people prefer smaller, quieter groups, but because they have alcohol to fuel them into these situations, they find it easier and they go to these things and they enjoy it. I couldn't think anything worse than going to a bar tonight, you know. If like Joe and I are going to just a little pizza restaurant, which will be quiet. There'll be people drinking, I'm sure, but it's not gonna be like a full-on bar where it's like really loud music. And I know I sound like an old fuddy-duddy now, but I think take the alcohol out of all those situations, out of everyone's situation, they're gonna find it really tough to go out to those things and and it and actually enjoy those things without the alcohol, you know. And I know there's people that can do that, and that's fine, but I think the majority of people would struggle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:09

Well, often it's the alcohol that makes the intolerable situation tolerable. Absolutely. And it, you know, you're going to it for the alcohol rather than oh yeah, I really love blah blah blah. You don't just you just think just there to get get a couple of drinks and just go, yeah.

unknown 1:41:28

You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:29

It's it's absolutely mad, but you know, we're just gonna keep banging the drum and and and see what what what tune comes out, but uh Yeah, 100%. Emma, have you got any recommendations for podcast, book, film, all to do with recovery, one or all three?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:46

Um let's see. So when I first got into podcasts um and discovered them, the one that I used to listen to loads was Love Sober. Oh, yeah, yeah, I love that. It's just great. It was like being part of a good conversation around a kitchen table with a big mug of tea. So yeah, I love um Love Sober. Um huge back catalogue of those. Um one of the first books that I was given, because there weren't many books when um when I when I stopped, was The Outrun by Amy Littrot. And I like uh five minutes back, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:35

Well, I watched uh Jenny and I went to see the film last year. I handwritten the book. We went to see the film, and we thought I just I was blown away by how brutally honest it was the depiction in Sorceron. And I actually have reached out to to Amy a few times on Instagram, but she's she's she's not coming on the podcast yet. Oh it's she may come on at some point, but I think she's kind of done with the sobriety world. She's now she's writing books about seaweed now as well, and it's it's a fantastic book. I loved it, absolutely loved it.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:04

Read the book, read it.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:05

Oh no, no, I have sorry, I've read the book since the film. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I absolutely adored that. I don't do you know what? It's funny watching the film before the book, but I I did prefer the book once I'd read it because it was more I was in her world and it's almost like a diary the way she's writing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:20

Uh the film was fantastic as well, but oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and and and just that's rare as well, isn't it? Where a book and a film are both standalone, yeah. Both fantastic. So yeah, this was this was one of the first books that that I read, and has it's always a book that that I recommend. Um I absolutely love it. And then another one, um, which is also a book and a film, is Wild by Cheryl Strade. Yeah. And that was a film with um Reese with a spoon. Yeah. And uh last year I hiked to Machu Picchu, so I kind of revisited this book as well. Um, and you know, the whole I can't remember the name of what she calls her rucksack, but yeah, I really, I really, I really felt something like the brute or the bear or something like the bear or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:13

Because it's huge. I mean, like, don't get me wrong, again, the film in the book. Uh I think I watched the film first, but then I I read the book. And the book, I think there's so much more in the book than in the film, which is often the way. Um, but I think they go into it in the book more about her struggles and the the the kind of the addiction that she had and the struggles with her with her mother and her ex and all that. They that's more in-depth in the book than in the film. Obviously, they touch on it in the film, but yeah, it's definitely a recovery book, yeah, without a doubt.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:43

Yeah, I really I really love that. I mean, I have got I've got literally bookcases full. I I I love I love a book, especially a quit lip book.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:54

Just is why I started asking people on the podcast because I put them on my list and and you know, and it's because there's just so many out there now, and it's it's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:04

Have you read Dry by Augustine Burroughs?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:08

Yeah, and running with scissors.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:10

Yeah, I mean it's such a good book. What was the other one I read recently? Um I think it was Augustine Burroughs when I when I read that, it then it sent me on to another one, and it's by a girl, she's she worked for the she was basically a reporter up in Seattle, she was from Texas, and uh she'd moved to Seattle in the kind of late 90s, early noughties, so you know that was it, and it just it just spiraled for her, her drinking and and whatnot. Um I'll put it in the description once I remember what it's called, but it's yeah, it's a really good book as well. It was just one of those well I I read I listened to them on Audible, and then once I'd finished Augustine Burroughs' book, it then led me on to this one, um, which was was fantastic as well. So I love the way you can do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:01

Have you read the trio um It's The Liars Club, Cherry and Lit by Mary, is it Mary Carney? Mary Carney, I can't remember how you pronounce her surname. They're fabulous as well. That's like through her life, just yeah, yeah, brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:18

Well, Augustine Burroughs has done so many. I mean, I haven't I haven't really delved into a lot of his other ones because they're all I think he goes back and he does one about his dad, then he does one about his early childhood with his dad, because his dad put like a cigarette out on his on his back or something, and he'd he'd he'd kind of put that out of his mind, but then his mum basically let him move in with this psychiatrist or something that was then abusing him.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:49

Yeah, that's it. Sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:50

But he's done he's done so many, and I think they're all mostly memoirs, but yeah, but funny, dark, and yeah, brutal as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:57

But yeah, yeah, no, love love his books. Um Rock Bottom, Glorious Rock Bottom, Brian Gordon, that's another another great book. But because this is going out in January, I've got this one, Wintering by Catherine May. It's not it's not um it's not a sobriety book, but I feel it's all about winter, funnily enough, and the cold, and it's divided up into months. And I just think that when you're embarking on your sober journey, no, that's not a favourite phrase of yours, but um I don't mind that.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:38

I think you're you're getting me confused with sober Dave, he doesn't like the word journey, but I don't I don't mind the word journey. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:46

But um it's like when you're going through something, I think it's quite nice to have something that segments something up, which this book does really well. So for me, when I first stopped drinking, it was in the autumn, and it was like the first time that I started to like autumn. It was like things were falling away, the beautiful colours, but things were falling away, and things were sort of getting stripped back to their sort of really um stark forms, and and then sort of winter being like the power of rest and reset, and then spring kind of coming forth. And so for me that cycle was really, really interesting, really sort of different because previously I'd always loved spring, start my birthday, celebrations, summer, down the pub, yay, beer gardens, and so and then it had been kind of winter, it's a bit miserable, we'll have to go to the pub, or you know, and so it got me to really rethink sort of that sort of structure of nature and the cycle, and I think also like as you're going into your your sort of evolution with with not drinking, over years things change, things shift, and you're like, oh, this time this year, this was happening, and now this is how I feel about this. And I think I become more kind of in tune with um with nature and and sort of cycles and and natural cycles of sort of let them flow. And I think wintering, um, there isn't there isn't a film yet that I'm aware of, but wintering is just a really nice book to read if you're wanting to just take a step out of Quitlit, but also have a book that kind of feels supportive about what might be going on for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:35

And grounding as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:37

Yeah, really grounding. Yeah, that's really good.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:39

I'm gonna put that on the list. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:41

Because you know, a lot of people get into going out for walks, and no, I certainly did, um, or they get into wild water swimming and things like that, and and a lot of that is covered in here and it's done in a really, really nice, nice way.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:54

Today was just it was like a perfect winter day. I mean, I know if you're you know it's not until. The winter solstice, you know, the 21st of December that winter officially starts. But I you know it's winter now because it's cold, we've had frost. But today was just this beautiful, crisp, sunny day with a bit of frost on the ground. Yeah, it was cold, but you know, I would I was stripping off half the way through the day because you know you know what I'm doing is is you know is heavy working, and and yeah, but it was it's just that's what I love about winter. It's just those crisp mornings where there's leaves in the ground but they're crunchy underfoot, and you know, you're you know you're gonna finish your day and come home, get the fire on, and you know, have a cup of tea or whatever and just check out.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:35

Yeah, that's easy. And how nice and how nice to enjoy it rather than be hungover.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:40

Exactly, without a doubt. Yeah, no. Thank you, Emma. It's been an absolute ah, just an absolute pleasure. Like I feel like I've known you for for years.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:48

So we have known each other for years, but not actually spoken.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:52

So yeah, yeah, it's been an absolute privilege getting to know you and listening to your story. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:57

Thank you, thank you for inviting me on. It's been lovely, lovely chatting, and I always feel that everyone in this community shares so many threads of connection, and it's so easy to find those once once you open up that conversation. So you oh, without a doubt, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:12

As I say, we've got so many similarities, and that's why I always say to people is listen for the similarities and not the differences. So and I'm sure they'll find so many in your story. And yeah, I know it's gonna help so many people as well. So yeah, so just keep doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:26

Thank you. You too.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:28

Take care. Bye bye, bye bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:29

Bye.